Firing Into Melee

Discussion on game mastering Earthdawn. May contain spoilers; caution is recommended!
Anoush
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Firing Into Melee

Postby Anoush » Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:12 pm

The rules for Firing Into Melee (Player's Guide, p. 393) don't seem logical to me. This was, in fact, a topic of a rather intense discussion at the last game that I ran. So, I'd like to better understand the rationale for the rules.

The crux of the issue: It seems that the better your shot is, the greater the chance that you'll hit someone you didn't intend to. Or perhaps, the better you are at ranged attacks, the greater the chance that you'll hit someone.

If a great archer shoots into melee -- there are 2 people between him and the target, whose PD is 8. So, the resulting target for the shot is 10. But the archer flubs, and rolls a 9. He misses. But, it's pretty likely that he'll hit one of the others that are between him and the original target.

Conversely, keep everything the same, except the shooter is lousy with a bow. He rolls and gets a 4. He misses. And almost certainly will miss the interposing people.

Something seems wrong to me. How do others understand the rule?

Thanks.

ChrisDDickey
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Re: Firing Into Melee

Postby ChrisDDickey » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:36 pm

I agree that the official rules feel unsatisfactory. The question is, can anybody come up with any rules that are actually better without being too complex?

As you pointed out, as the rules are, the best results are those where the dice roll is really high and the shot hits the actual targets PD, plus one for each obstructing character. The 2nd best results are those where the dice roll is really low and it miss's all the characters. The worst results have a middling dice roll where you miss your target, but hit your ally. This does feel wrong.

I played around with various formula that took into account the difference between all the potential PD's, and realized that all I was really trying to do was make it so that supper low results hit my friends, and the middling results missed everybody. The odds were still the same and all I was really achieving was playing around with the aesthetic of the roll results. I think it is better to just realize that in order to keep it simple, you just have to wrap your mind around the fact that when shooting into melee, a low result is better than a middling roll result. Freaky, but simple.

The other thing to understand is that with this system, you need to be super careful firing into melee with creature with a PD that is much higher than your allies. Lets say there is a melee between a creature with a PD of 15, and two of your allies with PDs of 8 and 9. Lets say your bow attack is made with a step of 12. The simple fact is that most of the time you are going to miss your intended target. And that if your line of attack passes through one of your allies hex's, most of the time you are going to hit an ally. Might I suggest using True Shot? Or just not firing, and maneuvering so that you are closer to the melee, and/or on a flank, so that next time your line of attack too and past the creature does not go through any hexes with an ally in it?

Sometimes the most useful thing you can do is nothing.

Dougansf
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Re: Firing Into Melee

Postby Dougansf » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:14 pm

Depending on angles, the interposing people could grant a cover bonus to the intended target. There is also the possibility that you'd be hitting your ally from the Blindside.

Both of these factors would widen the Friendly Fire Gap.

Telarus_KSC
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Re: Firing Into Melee

Postby Telarus_KSC » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:29 am

The firing into a melee rules are intended to make that a dangerous risky option. Find a better angle, or you have a great chance of hitting a friend (or enemy) between you and your target. The rules are setup that way so that the higher the base target's PD is above those surrounding it, then the more the odds generate those misfires. This also scales with a higher # of characters in the way of the shot. This, I feel, is intended.

* I would not grant Cover from simply being in line of the shot. I would grant partial cover for purposefully trying to protect another with shields or with the bulk of your body. This is in addition to the firing into melee rules, so an even greater chance of hitting the shielding character (but notice that Shields affect those blocker's PD as well now, much better use of them rules-wise).

Slimcreeper
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Re: Firing Into Melee

Postby Slimcreeper » Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:48 am

Idaknow, it makes sense to me that a low roll would miss everything. The narrative for a bow shot with a roll of 4 is that the missile arcs wildly off into the distance.

I do agree that the window is pretty narrow, especially with a big bad muscle guy fighting your friendly neighborhood swordmaster and that the mechanics are a little clunky. Maybe it could be refined as follows: Hitting a target that is in melee combat requires one more success than normal. On a normal miss, compare the attack result to the PD of each of the other combatants in the melee, starting with the lowest. If the attack roll is greater, then the attack hits the other combatant. On All 1's, the attack automatically hits one an ally in the melee.

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Tattered Rags
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Re: Firing Into Melee

Postby Tattered Rags » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:20 am


cz1234
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Re: Firing Into Melee

Postby cz1234 » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:35 pm


Telarus_KSC
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Re: Firing Into Melee

Postby Telarus_KSC » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:37 pm

The "melee" situation means that most people "in the line of fire" have other people with pointy bits trying to kill them, and thus are distracted. So a mook standing in front of a boss is not "in melee", BUT your pal fighting a mook and another friend fighting the boss right next to them, yeah sure - line the mook up with the big bad and take the shot, that's good tactics (and you probably only have 1 ally in the way). Still risky :P

In old school D&D, you simply could not take the shot into active melees, because missile fire happens in the "1 minute combat turn"_before_ or _after_ all individual melees are concluded (diced until the post-"round" morale shows surrender or retreat). This is a legacy from the scale of wargaming units that went into old D&D. The type of rule we have now was introduced when the game moved to shorter (6/10 second) combat rounds when the action moved into the dungeon, and you had to fit archery/artillery(magic) in the 6/10 second round structure somehow.

Most other mechanics that I can think of would have you make another test to see which guy in the line of fire got hit, or maybe have each of them test against the attack roll. I think that is overly complicated, and that's why I like the current rule. In play the current rule most often boils down to "miss your now slightly more difficult shot by 1-3, and an ally with a low PD in the way may be hit". You really shouldn't be firing across a large melee (4+ intervening characters), that's just asking for trouble.

Slimcreeper
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Re: Firing Into Melee

Postby Slimcreeper » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:22 pm

Maybe on a roll of all 1s, it hits the ally with the highest PD. The one who thinks he's never going to get hit.

Anoush
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Re: Firing Into Melee

Postby Anoush » Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:21 pm



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