Animal Bond

[Frostwind]

Two questions because the talent doesn't seem clear to me (p. 125 players guide):

"The adept develops a bond of trust with an animal, making an Animal Bond test
against the animal’s Social Defense. If successful, the animal takes a Neutral attitude
toward him (the Gamemaster’s Guide has more information on attitudes). The adept
may make additional tests to further improve the animal’s attitude, but must spend at
least one day with the animal between tests, treating it well during that time.
Each subsequent improvement requires an additional success on the Animal
Bond test (so it requires two successes to improve from Neutral to Friendly)."

1-A have a situation in my game: the player rolled 2 extra success (so a total of 3 success) for a wild creature on his first roll. Does it mean that the creature is already "Loyal", since scale is: unfriendly/hostile (0), neutral (1), friendly (2), loyal (3) and awestruck (4)?
(N.B: number in parenthesis is to show the number of success required)
Or does it only means that the wild animal is neutral and will need extra success on other rolls?

2-Also, the wording is not clear to what additional success mean: is it a total of 4 success to have an awestruck animal companion, or each level requires a different roll where neutral=1 success on the same roll, loyal=2 success on the roll (+1 additional success on the roll) and so on?

Thanks,

[Tattered Rags]

You aren't the first to ask this question, but I don't think a satisfactory answer was forthcoming the first time around.

Here's the other thread:

[Telarus_KSC]

I lean towards requiring separate rolls (and 1 day of interaction) for each separate Attitude level, requirements being Neutral needs 1 Success, Friendly needs 2, Loyal needs 3, and Awestruck needs 4. Short-term encounter/single day stuff is what Dominate Beast is for.

[Frostwind]

Thanks Tarrered Rags for the link to the other post. After reading it, I have to tell that it is the like that I understood the talent at first. But, after discussing with another player, the wording seems more like an "accumulated success overtime": one for neutral, one for friendly, one for loyal, etc. Like if it count the first success obtain in the test for putting the animal to neutral.

I see it more like a researcher that need success overtime: 4 success are required over time at total to have an animal bond awestruck.

I wound like to see the interpretation of Joss or Morgan on that.

[Tattered Rags]

You're welcome.

My interpretation of the rules and what I think is the intent is that you can only raise the attitude one tier at a time (except perhaps the first one to neutral). Each tier requires X successes based on the tier (as noted above). Successes are cumulative from roll to roll until the attitude raises, when it then resets to 0 successes. One roll per day.

So, roll for neutral to friendly, get 3 successes, attitude changes to friendly. Roll the next day for friendly to Loyal, get 1 success. Attitude remains friendly, but you are 1 success on the way to raising the attitude to Loyal (despite the extra success from the neutral to friendly roll; that one doesn't count anymore).

I feel this makes sense with the rules, uses cumulative successes (allowing low circle characters to get to higher attitudes), while still maintaining the idea that it takes time to raise the attitude.

[Mataxes]

You can only raise one level per test, regardless of how many successes you score.

While not fully explicit in the ED4 version of the rules, this is the way the talent has worked since the ED1 days (which says, "After the Beastmaster has successfully used this talent one time, the animal takes a neutral attitude toward him or her."). A second use could raise the level to Friendly, but prevented further bonding until the Beastmaster had Animal Bond at Rank 4, at which point success made the animal Loyal.

(I think the wording in the ED4 version is clear that the first test makes the animal neutral, regardless of the number of successes. Talk of additional successes isn't brought in until later.)

Earthdawn Classic introduces the idea of higher result levels for higher levels of loyalty ("Each subsequent increase requires an additional result level on the Animal Bond Test."). ED3 uses the same language.

The intent (and official clarification) is that the number of successes 'resets' after each increase in loyalty. To bring the animal from neutral to friendly, the character needs to score two successes, and the ones scored on the initial roll don't count.

As to whether successes can be accumulated over multiple rolls, or they all need to happen at once... I'm agnostic at the moment. I need to think through the consequences of how it would turn out in play -- also looking at how that interacts with creature traits that make bonding more difficult (e.g. "Willful" from the GM Guide).

In fact... here's an example of the kind of thinking involved in game design, when looking at the interaction of different pieces and parts.

For instance... the brithan has "Willful (1)" which means tests made to tame/bond it require an additional success. This means for the initial Neutral bond the Beastmaster needs a 14 (2 successes vs DN 9). If, for higher levels, we require it all in one roll, that's pretty straightforward... Friendly requires a 19 (the normal two successes plus one for Willful).

If we allow the successes over multiple rolls, then does the Willful trait affect each roll, or just affect the total number of successes required? It depends on how you want things to work in the long run...

The latter just means the Beastmaster can, over three days, roll "9" on each Animal Bond test to eventually increase the Brithan's level to Friendly.

The former means that the Beastmaster would, potentially, need to actually score six total successes in a worst case scenario -- needing a minimum of 14 for each test, each of which counts as only one success... and for creatures with high Social Defense and Willful... *cough* Skeorx *cough*... this can get into ludicrous territory (though it would explain how taming those creatures is difficult at best).

The thing is, in the end, what kind of result do we want to see? The varying methods each result in a different effective 'reality' for potential animal companions, and while there might be n "official" way, there are different sliders involved that can change things around.

[Tattered Rags]

Assuming successes are cumulative, let's take, as a thought experiment, a failure on the first attempt at bonding with an animal that has willful. If the trait only applies to the first attempt only, then it's as if it never applied at all: it merely adds a day to each attitude raise. So why have it at all?

Applying it to every interaction makes sense. The creature isn't easier to tame just because the beastmaster started bonding. This also makes higher values of Animal Bond worthwhile, both in the speed at which willful animals can be bonded but also makes it even reasonable to attempt.

(Edit: noticed a duplicate word)

[Mataxes]

That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. I want to devote a bit more time to thinking through the consequences, but right now I've got other more pressing demands.

(I have an audiobook production that is technically due tonight, and I'm slightly behind schedule. Fortunately I got an extension until this weekend, but I still have 15 chapters that need a final clean-up pass and that is taking up a large chunk of my current free time.)

Feel free to continue the thought experiment and discussion of consequences. It might save me a little effort.

[Tattered Rags]

[Frostwind]

Thanks for the answer Mataxe, it's really appreciated.