Battle Bellow

[Gkeckley]

I have a couple of questions on how Battle Bellow works.
1) Battle Bellow allows you to target a group within rankx10 yards. If there is a group of 10 people within range could you choose to target only 5 of them instead of all 10? Being as the difficulty is the highest Social Defense +1 per additional target this can easily be the difference between success or failure. This could also make a difference if you want to just target your party cause you know you can beat their Social Defense but the enemy's is way to high. This question would also apply to other similar talents and spells that target a group.
2). When targeting your allies if someone has a group thread of rank 5 to Social Defense would you not count the bonus to Social Defense due to the thread? This question would also apply to other talents and spells as well that aid the party.

[Razan_GM]

1) You choose who you target so you can target 1-10 (your choice how many)

2) When targeting your allies you target their enchanced Defenses, so if he has +5 to def rating its also harder for you to as its is for enemies.

[Ral76]

Reading this I am unclear on how a character can target only selected targets out of a bulk of people standing in front of him with a bellow. I can understand that e.g. a skyraider with rank 3 decides to only bellow 10 yards thus avoiding having too many enemies in range, but if you bellow a certain range and the enemies in your range are not deaf, shouldn't it inevitably target all enemies in one's bellow range?

From a GM point of view one could always say it's a magic bellow and that's that, but ...

[Razan_GM]

Whenever in talent/power/spell is written "the target group/characters" you may choose who is your target. So yes you can pick only 3 targets from the crowd.

[Griznah]

[Razan_GM]

As everything also magic has bonuses and penalties, and Group Pattern is no diffrent. Its not some kind of free of consequences boost. Magic don't know and doesn't care who is using skill/talent on you, its simply gives you a bonus to Defense.

[Gkeckley]

It's not free of consequence or cost
1 it costs blood magic
2 you are vulnerable to someone stealing the pattern item (steal the groups pattern items and watch the party freak out as they track them down)
3 you are paying legend points for the thread

I agree that applying the raise to the defense when a group member is using a beneficial talent on you seems to go against the spirit of the oath.
To say that it cannot tell the difference in who is using the talent on you is bogus to me. It can tell if you are using a harmful talent against the group member, it can tell when you are acting alone and not in the interest of the group, meaning you do not get the bonus. To me it seems it should all be about intent.

[Razan_GM]

"To me it seems it should all be about intent." ...when i see something like this....

So your teammate comes from around a corner and he sees you attacking innocent victim of someones plot. He dont have enough time to tell you to stop. So he uses Battle Shout on you, hoping that with penalty you will miss. - Battle Shout gives you penalty so your Defense should be with bonus from Group Pattern, but his intents are "good".

Bonus from GP or other Magic dont know your intents, they just dont.

[Mataxes]

As written, any modifiers to a character's Defense Ratings apply in ED4. Yes, this does mean that beneficial effects are more difficult to place on somebody.

I have always been a little bit leery when "intent" comes into play with regard to Group True Patterns, because that way lies madness. Are you able to justify something? Then no problem! Never mind that humanity is great at post hoc rationalization.

The bonus from a Group True Pattern applies whenever the characters are acting or interacting as a group. The investment of magical energy required to take advantage of this significant magical ritual is a big deal, and not one to be treated casually. Nature doesn't give a damn about your intentions, it just is. Sometimes that works in your favor, and sometimes it doesn't.

[Gkeckley]

I disagree. If it does not care about your intent then why does it care when you attempt to harm a member of your group, you immediately take a blood wound and lose the benefits of your threads as your blood peace oath is broken. Also, if for instance you are haggling over the price of your room no bonus for you, if you haggle over the price of a room for the group as a whole then you get the thread bonuses. Intent means everything in how you use the talents or enhancements.