Versatility and spell casting

[Spader]

Ok. Let say a 5th circle warrior spends 4 of her versatility slots to be able to cast wizard spells. She rises her Wizardry to rank 5 so she can now cast 5th circle spells.
Then she learns Elementalist as a second discipline.

Now she is limited to 1st circle elementalist spells but her circle in warrior discipline allows her to cast higher wizardry spells. More than that, hadn't she learn a second discipline and got Elementalist with her versatility, she could have learned higher elementalist spells.

Am I alone who feels something's wrong?

[Kasbak]

Spellcasting with Versatility has always been a sticky subject. I believe a lot if its balance and feel has to do with both player choices and the style of camapign the GM runs. If your question is only on the difference in castable spell Circles being there, then no, that is balanced to me, as with any new skill you have to start at the bottom and work your way up. If the question is on the actual rate the higher Circle spells can be cast, then yes, I do feel it is off.

In my Barsaive, I limited the Circle of spells that can be cast through Versatility to half the rank of the relevant Threadweaving rounded up. This both increased the time a bit to get to a higher spell Circle (two meditations instead of just one), and capped the highest Circle spell that can be cast to 8th. It doesn't quite slow things down to the point I would like, at least in the early stages, but it seems to keep things fair, simple to figure out, and still playable.

[Spader]

In my campaign, I have a human player (Thief 5; Illusionist 3).
She wants to learn Wizardry with her versatility. When she manage to, she'll have quickly access to fifth circle Wizard spells but still limited to third circle Illusionist spells without raising any discipine circle.

I understand it might be well balance. It just feels strange that a character may be better at casting spells from a foreign discipline that from his own.

But I like you idea about limiting on half the rank of thread weaving.

[Panda]

There are a couple of things going on here. First, you have the Thread Weaving talent limitations on casting (unless it is from a grimoire, where it starts to get all funny depending on your edition, so let's never speak of it again). If the character in question really wanted to, she could increase her Illusionism talent at the same rate as Wizardry. There is absolutely nothing preventing this. Technically. However, to cast those higher Circle spells, she still needs to have a Spell Matrix of the appropriate Rank. Also, those pesky Read and Write Magic tests to actually learn the spell in the first place. Also, finding a source to teach her the spells. Though my players wish it were otherwise, spells do not fall like manna from the heavens.

On a setting level, Wizards are rather persnickety and may not take kindly teaching their secrets to one of the "uninitiated". All she has proven is she can take a correspondence course from the local learning annex, not actually dedicate herself to mastering the arcane mysteries.

There is nothing at all which prevents this (beyond introducing, other than it being rather expensive. What is going to start feelings strange in this setup is the fact Wizardry will be cheaper to improve than Illusionism. In the future, there are certain, ah, remedies which have been applied to discourage this to an extent. Which is a moot for right now and not exactly helpful. It is a fairly common house rule to not allow Thread Weaving talents to be learned through Versatility. It sounds like the ship on that one has already set sail, however.

[Utsukushi]

[Mataxes]

As Morgan kind of said, the maximum Circle spell you can cast as a Versatile caster is not based on your Circle, but your rank in Thread Weaving (or Circle, whichever is lower). So When your Fifth Circle Warrior picks up his first rank of Wizardry under Versatility, he can only cast First Circle Wizard spells (from a matrix). If he has raised his Wizardry to Rank 5, then he can cast Fifth Circle Wizard Spells.

So you're comparing apples and oranges. If the same Warrior picks up Elementalism 1 under Versatility, he can cast First Circle Elementalist spells, not Fifth. If he learns Elementalist as a second Discipline, his ability to cast Elementalist spells from a matrix is based on his Elementalist Circle.

And yes, doing it this way is kind of... inefficient. If he has learned R/W Magic and Spellcasting and a Standard Matrix under Versatility, those talents do not help him advance as an Elementalist.

[Spader]

I understand perfectly.

But while we're at it, and just because I like being the devil's advocate, if the said warrior learns to matrix cast 5th circle elementalist spells with his versatility then he learns Elementalist as a second discipline, he will suddenly loose the ability to cast 2nd circle spells and up because he is now a true spellcaster. That's kinda weird.

ps.: I understand I made some effort to look for trouble with this exemple. I am not complaining (it probably looks like though, sorry). I see those exemples more like "fun facts".

[Panda]

You have indeed found a curious edge case, though not one which is unsolvable. To begin, there are two Elementalism talents, one for the discipline and one for Versatility. The question of what Circle can I cast begins and ends with which Thread Weaving talent I want to use. The one from my discipline, which can have Karma spent, has the Circle limit, while the one from Versatility, which cannot have Karma, is limited by rank.

Eventually, when they are equal rank, the Versatility version will disappear and free up a slot, but the Legend Points are lost forever.

Hopefully this covers it?

[Lys]

I'll admit I'm not a fan of the "Legend Points are lost forever" part of... pretty much anything, actually. It requires you to be very careful in how you plan your character ahead of time, which I find to be more of a chore than any actual fun. I generally prefer to treat LP as something permanent that is merely committed on various things. If that thing stops being relevant to your character, like a destroyed Thread Item or a supplanted Versality Talent, then the committed LP is freed up to spend on something else. Alternatively, LP isn't permanent, but if you fall behind everyone else the ST will give you a little extra until you catch up, so losing something you spent LP on hurts, but only temporarily.

[etherial]