Shield charge -Over powered?

[Avantio]

I was having a discussion with my players about the Shield Bash talent and we find it difficult to come to a conclusion. I hope some of you may help me understand the talent better:
1. Does it give additional attack?
2. Can it be used with Second Attack / Second weapon?
3. Does it initiate a knockdown test?
4. What are the downsides to this talent (aside from strain) - i.e. what should stop the adept from completely foregoing a weapon and just pump up the talent rank to get outrageous damage? (especially quite early in the game)

Personally I think:
1. No.
2. Yes - but in case of second attack the adept has to shield bash again. Second weapon can by anything held in the other hand.
3. No, it just increases the difficulty if the target recieves a wound.
4. None, this is essentally a weapon replacement until you find a thread weapon that can outdamage / grant additional bonuses. Additionally you open up to attacks from others, however if facing more than one enemy other will allways try to flank you to get around the shield so it's not really a big downside...

The way I think this talent should be and how I houserule it now is:
1. It gives a free attack (so it changes it's action type to simple)
2. Only wih second attack when you use your main weapon for melee attack.
3. Yes, the damage test result is the difficulty number
a) damage is Str + Physical Armor of the shield
b) attack is rolled using the Shield Bash talent step
4. It is a good opening attack, however will be allways under-damaged in comparison to weapons (unless you use a dagger and a body shield...) you can only use it once per round and plays out as a support talent rather than main attack.

Please share your thoughts about this with me

[ukhata]

little fun fact that makes this talent better.
use this attack in an "attack to knockdown" combat option. it will make for a great first round action with almost guaranteed knockdown.

regards
Ukhata

[Void]

My understanding is that it just replaces the damage roll when using the shield as a weapon, it does not grant an extra attack. Similar to the way crushing blow works. Any melee attack is valid as long as the shield is being used as the weapon.

I'm sure this was clarified some time ago on the forums.

Regards

The Void

[Telarus_KSC]

Agreed, it requires a separate "Attack Roll" (another talent or skill) and you then get to roll Shield Charge as the Effect Test.

[Avantio]

yeah so thats how i understand it as written in the book. I'm more interested in the balance of this talent - is it only me (& my players) that think it's broken in a way that it makes a shield better than weapons?

ukhata - good point, I kind of forogot about that. Will use this in my revised Shield charge

[Oofje]

Keep in mind that when you use Shield Charge, you lose the defensive bonus of the shield against (other) attackers. Perhaps this makes it less 'broken' in your opinion?

[Avantio]

not really - I see it like this - when facing more then one opponet the others that you do not face currently will try to flank you anyways so you don't get the defensive bonus anyway...

[Oofje]

Player's Guide, page 219, Using Shields:
Only if blindsided by an opponent, you lose the defensive bonuses of a shield, otherwise a character receives full bonuses of every attack made against him/her (unless opponents are using the 'Going Inside a Shield' combat option).

There's a ton of information on combat options and rules in that section about all forms of combat, you might want to give it another (careful) read. You might encounter something you had previously forgotten, or didn't know.

[Avantio]

I gave it a read through, and altough I found some options I indeed forgot about, nothing there convices me that the talent is ok.

[Oofje]

Well, think about it.

Example: Warrior adept with shield charge and second weapon.
First attack: Shield charge with Attempt to Knockdown combat option. The result of the shield charge Test is used as the knockdown difficulty for the opponent (negating wound threshold).
Second Attack: Second Weapon, with opponent knocked down, which results in an easier-to-hit opponent, with more chance of an armor-defeating hit.