Thread Items / Damage Step

[ArcadianRefugee]

In 3e, thread items (armor, weapons) were said to have their stats (armor ratings, damage step) increased "as if Forge Armor [or Forge Weapon] was used to maximum effect". In 3e, Forge Armor/Weapon were limited not only by the Forger's Rank, but also by the Armor's base Rating, rounded
up, or the Weapon's Size.

These do not appear to be the cases in 4e, where the only limit stated is the Forger's Rank.

So, how would something like that work now? Are thread items being completely revamped, or is there an easy way to convert 3e thread weapons to 4e?

For instance (at the risk of over explaining) a Dwarf Sword is Step 4, Size 2. Thus, a Thread Dwarf Sword would be Damage Step 6 upon weaving a Thread to it (the max a Forger could get a normal Dwarf Sword to). Is that something that, somehow, carries over to 4e, or are the templates for thread items being revamped?

Aside: Windlings should be very happy now, as their puny little weapons are no longer limited to just a single Rank of upgrade. FEAR the windling with the Damage Step 9 sword!

[etherial]

[Mataxes]

Etherial has the right of it (mostly).

There was a perceived issue in ED1 with thread weapons and the Forge Blade talent. Mainly, forge blade could result in a much higher damage weapon than almost any of the example thread items in the books. ED1 introduced a cap to the bonus Forge Blade could provide -- effectively doubling the weapon's damage (so a broad sword could get up to Step 10 from Forge Blade). Even with this limit, double damage was more than the damage output of the vast majority of thread items. Therefore, thread weapons were generally viewed as inferior.

This is despite the fact that:
A) Thread weapons could give bonuses and abilities beyond raw damage and
B) Forge Blade could be used on thread weapons (though IIRC it was a bit tougher, as the DN was the item's Spell Defense, and there was a chance a poor result on the test could damage the weapon -- though to be honest I've spent the past 20 minutes looking for the rules on that and haven't been able to find them to confirm).

Another consequence was the knock-on effect it has on the setting. For example, the soldiers of Throal were all equipped with fully-forged broadswords -- raising the 'effective' damage step of most non-thread weapons.

ED2 introduced a time limit to the talent -- yes, you could boost a weapon pretty high, but it would wear off. ED3 (actually it was Classic) introduced the Size limit for the bonus, rather than the base damage step.

I don't recall where it first cropped up, but ED3 also had the rule that Forge Weapon couldn't be used on thread weapons -- but to counteract that, set the Rank 1 benefit for all thread weapons that it would have the maximum forge bonus. This meant that, at minimum, a thread item would be as good as the best non-magic example of that weapon.

ED4 has chucked most of that, going back to the ED1 roots. Forge Weapon can be used on thread items, and follows the same rules as it does for non-thread weapons, where the DN is the weapon's damage step. There is no risk of damaging the weapon on failure. We still have the time limit from ED2 -- it fits the ritual nature of the talent, and serves as a way to limit the number of high-damage but non-magical weapons on the setting. Maintaining a high bonus from Forge Weapons requires a high circle Weaponsmith -- absent one of those, the bonus fades over time and therefore thread weapons have an edge (if you'll pardon the pun). They have a permanent bonus.

To "convert" an ED3 thread weapon to ED4, Etherial's idea is a good one. The GM Guide will have full guidelines for building out magic items.

[ArcadianRefugee]

[Utsukushi]

[etherial]

[ArcadianRefugee]

[Mataxes]

So there's a bunch of things going on when it comes to forged weapons. It affects armor as well, but in earlier editions forged armor was rare at best because of how high Circle it was as a talent.

Having a permanent bonus result from Forge Blade (ED1) runs into problems, so the "no more than double the base damage" rule makes sense -- otherwise forged weapons really dominate the setting (even with that limit though, they still dominated -- see the +5 broadsword to Throal infantry issue). While ED1 limited how much an individual Weaponsmith could work on a blade, there was nothing to prevent a character from taking the weapon to another Weaponsmith once the limit was reached. In addition, the (relatively) low DNs for the tests -- weapon Damage Step -- made failed tests unlikely outside of inexperienced Weaponsmiths working on high-damage weapons.

The rules introduced in Adept's Way for forging thread weapons (thanks for pointing me to the right place on that) complicated matters, and I'm not quite sure why the DN was handled differently -- whether it was done for game balance or to hew more to the metaphysical "reality" of what is being done. Let me kind of talk through this...

Let's take the ED1 version of Kegel's Sword. Broadsword, Spell Defense of 13. According to Adept's Way, improving the weapon via Forge Blade requires an "Excellent or Extraordinary" success (meaning a 24 or better in this case). This is higher than any test that might be made to improve a standard broadsword -- which has a DN of 9 on the test to improve it to +5 Damage (for a total of STR+10). Kegel's Sword caps out in it's rank bonus at STR+9 -- one less than the best damage possible on a 'basic' broadsword. Granted, Kegel's Sword has other bonuses, and a special damage effect that can cause some targets to take up to STR+15.

A fully forged standard broadsword under these rules are pretty solidly within the ability of a Weaponsmith with the minimum rank necessary in Forge Blade (assuming only a PER Step of 6, they would be rolling a Step 11 test before Karma factored in -- a 65% chance of success even before Karma). To have the same chance of success to add a singe bonus to Kegel's Sword (thereby getting the equivalent STR+10) the Weaponsmith will need to be rolling a Step 28 test (roughly) -- which means you're going to need additional bonuses from somewhere (thread magic, Karma, etc) as you need to be adding 21 or 22 Steps to the base Attribute.

Effectively, this makes thread weapons limited by their inherent damage bonus, as the chance to increase damage beyond that provided by the item is much lower. Even looking at Lorm's Axe (which has a SD of 7) the DNs for fully forging a battle-axe are much lower -- DN 11 for the last test to get it to STR+12 Damage, vs the 15 (Excellent Success vs SD of 7). Much more likely, but still harder.

What this effectively does is put forged weapons on (roughly) the same level as thread weapons in terms of damage output. Forged weapons end up (on average) a touch higher damage but lack the additional bonuses that thread weapons have. Forged blades also don't require the Legend Point expenditure.

I think, frankly, thread weapons end up on the short end of the stick in this situation -- a character would be better served (from a numbers standpoint) to use those Legend Points to get an item more dedicated to boosting Defense Ratings. Extra damage is relatively easy to come by. Extra Defense not so much. (The all or nothing aspect of armor in ED1 throws additional twists into the mix and I'm not even going to address that here.)

ED2 added the time limit, which reduces the impact of forged weapons on the setting, and tilts the balance back toward thread weapons -- though not entirely. They still generally have a lower "cap", but now the higher damage from forged weapons is paid for by maintenance costs. IIRC, they didn't change anything with regard to using the talent on thread weapons. (Though the core ED2 book doesn't have anything in it about the limit on forged weapons or the different rules for thread items -- they might be in another book I don't have handy.) ED2 also does away with the maximum number of times a Weaponsmith can try forging -- a lower-rank Weaponsmith instead needs to have their blades maintained/forged more often.

Classic kept the time limit but increased it (from Rank months to a flat year-and-a-day), increased the DN (to 9+current Damage Step), and rather than use a thread weapon's Spell Defense, used the same DN formula as non-thread weapons (ignoring damage bonuses from threads), but required a Good result. It changed the maximum bonus to the lower of weapon Size or Damage Step (mainly because of the quarterstaff)

Looking at this in hindsight, I kind of like it. You have the maintenance from ED2 that keeps permanent forged weapons from overrunning the setting (without the really fiddly record keeping required with the variable duration of Rank months), a lower cap on the max damage balances forged weapons against thread weapons a little bit better, and the ability to increase the damage on thread weapons even gives them a bit of an edge (though it is slightly higher, it is not as crazy as it is using Excellent result vs. Spell Defense). I think the base DN is maybe a touch too high -- for example, the DN range for a broadsword is: +1 (14), +2 (15), +3 (16). IIRC we based those on the assumption that Karma would be spent on the test, but even then a "typical" C1 Weaponsmith with Rank 2 Forge Blade and PER 7 would have a tough time with that first bonus. You're looking at high Journeyman-tier Weaponsmiths will have a hard time (Rank 7 + PER 7 is a 50/50 chance on that first bonus) really maxing out weapons -- even more difficult when you're looking at larger weapons, and thread weapons inch that up even more with the Good success requirement.

ED3 kept things mostly the same as Classic, but removed the ability for the talent to be used on thread weapons entirely. Instead thread weapons get their max forge bonus at Rank 1 and then can stack additional damage on top of that. I don't really understand the rationale for the change, as I wasn't involved with ED3 development, and I'm not sure what "problem" it was trying to fix. Looking at the EDC version, it makes even less sense to me than it did before. (Hence the reason for the change.)

The main reason that all weapons in ED4 (normal and thread) use the same formula is for standardization and simplicity. The DN has been notched down, making it a little bit easier to get those bonuses, and the general limit on the max bonus you can get is how many higher Rank Weaponsmiths you have in your Barsaive. Yes, it is now possible to get a Step 20 Broadsword, but you need a Weaponsmith with Rank 15 Forge Weapon to maintain it. Those aren't common, or cheap.

[Razan_GM]

With Group Pattern + few thread items boosting Forge Weapon Rank (+5, +2, +2, +2) you can get broadsword to a Step of 31 and more

I like it, generals of kingdoms would be really feared in battle. And there is always a better weapon for fighting characters.