ED3 Haggle for Trolls

[crizh]

I'm pretty new to ED so be gentle.

I'm playing a Troll Swordmaster in my first ED campaign and I've made a point of reading Namegivers of Barsaive, the Troll section at any rate, so that I can at least pay lip-service to role-playing my race.

Here's my problem, p100 of Namegivers makes it very clear that Trolls do not Haggle. Ever. Period. Attempting to do so is severely insulting and likely to result in a Namegiver developing a severe axe allergy.

But there are no rules for this in the rules section. Earthdawn's Disciplines are littered with the Haggle Talent which a Troll has absolutely no business learning.

So, does anyone here have a good suggestion for how to deal with this? Ideally a substitute Talent that makes sense for a Troll to employ when a character of another race might elect to use Haggle.

[Anunnaki]

Hi crizh,

Just noting that you are referring to Highland Trolls, who hold a more "stringent" set of ideals than their Lowland cousins.

In terms of player characters, as a GM I tend to cut them more slack. If a character's Discipline includes Haggling as an important part of doing things (like a Thief or Troubadour), then even a Highland Troll shouldn't be unduly penalized (not that these are the most common Disciplines among Highland Trolls, of course!). Haggling among one's own kind could be problematic, regardless.

However, should the situation come up in play, I'd just wing it and give the character a -2 penalty.

And there will be savvy merchants who recognize this "quirk" and don't take advantage of it. "Friend troll, my own family takes great pride in debating the value of a transaction. We disdain the use of the term 'haggling' as we feel it is over-used and less-than-honorable. In consideration of this, perhaps we can 'debate' the value of the transaction further? Over a cup of ale, even?"

Just a very quick train of thought between tasks, but I hope it helps!

Kind regards, James

[crizh]

My impression has been more that Lowland Trolls tend to have a less 'stringent' response to sleights to their honour than their Highland brethren.

The text of Namegivers seems fairly clear that haggling is generally highly insulting to katorr to an extent that I can't imagine Lowland Trolls feeling differently about it. They might not punch you in the mouth but they will make you suffer in some other way in retaliation. There is lots of built in wiggle room obviously but in my case I'm trying to play a fairly traditionalist attitude with more measured responses to ignorant no'a'ul.

The point was not that Trolls should suffer a penalty to Haggle but that they ought to be banned from learning it at all. Nobody but an Outcast would dare train aother Troll Adept in Haggle and getting caught using it would result in becoming Outcast yourself. Or dead.

So my question wasn't so much how do you model Trolls haggling but what Talent would make an appropriate alternative?

edit

Perhaps Evaluate for example.

[galafrone]

beside the fact that haggle ISNT a discipline talent for a swordmaster (is an optional talent, so you arent obliged to learn it) if your troll really hates even the idea to have a chance to train in it (in theory, since he can always skip it), well, evaluate will be a nice option.

but all in all Haggle is mandatory for just the Weaponsmith and if you will like to swap it with something (since they already get evaluate) it can be Etiquette.
Or move Speak Languages in for Discipline talent and push Haggle back to Talent Option
so your troll will not (again) forced to learn it

[crizh]

Yeah that was kinda what I was already thinking. I'm already using the Bladesman version of Swordmaster which does that with Taunt and Acrobatic Strike and it is Weaponsmith that I plan to take as a second Discipline.

I was just really wondering if anyone had any more interesting or elegant ideas. Glancing over the Talent list Steely Stare almost fits the bill of something you could do instead of Haggle but I'm not sure it is mechanically quite right.

[galafrone]

haggle is basically trying to keep the price as lower as possible.
and that's a thing the trolls customarily avoid to do.
but there are also trolls (in the lore) that are less drastic (comes in my mind the good torgak in haven, a merchant prince, owner of a shop).
probably a troll can do better with evaluate. it's like "the right price is (insert value), so i am not paying anything less nor anything more".
evaluate comes a good tool so the troll knows (more or less precisely) how much is the "right price" for an item.

said so, for the weaponsmith (that already gets evaluate), i will avoid steely stare, because is a journeyman talent that should replace a novice talent.
and isnt a good side effect (you intimidate a person, that isnt the best in an economic transition)
i still think that Etiquette should work. Or first impression. if you know how to behave, you (the troll) know that you will be probably targetted by haggle attempts (you will never do the same) so you can manage the honor troubles "informing" your partner in the transaction that you arent joking about the price (of the item you are buying or selling)

[crizh]

Quickly looking over Etiquette I'm not sure it is ideal, perhaps Diplomacy might be a better choice for ensuring that conflicting interests in a business transaction do not result in offence being given to either party.

The mechanics don't seem too relevant but the fluff is more appropriate.

[galafrone]

Diplomacy can work it out, but is (just for sake of precision) a talent that is got at journeyman level usually (not at novice or even worse, initiate).
anyway Your Barsaive RIght Barsaive (as one of the greatest always says)

[etherial]