ED3 Summoning Spell timelines

[meerkat]

Happily as the forums still appear to be active time to start asking some more questions

Lets talk summoning spells. I recall discussions on the old forums about summoning spirits or elementals and how after summoning you had to successfully talk to them before they would do things (chewing up valuable combat rounds) but what about tasked spirits? (ie from spells).

Lets use the 5th CIrcle Nethermancer spell Astral Horror to illustrate. You spend 3 rounds thread weaving then 1 casting. Tada the creature appears (Rnd 4).

It says in the spell description you do not have to concentrate to direct it but when would it get its first attack? The round it is summoned (round 4) or the next round (round 5)? Same can be said about Fog ghosts who are sentient and immediately attack the nearest living creature.

Just mindful the summoning classes (Elementalist & Nethermancer) seem to have more threads to their spells so trying to figure if these summoning spells are attractive alternatives in combat (given common consensus appears to be a fight is over in 10 rnds or less) or if they need to be cast outside of combat in preperaton for a fight.

Trouble is if you only make these spells to be cast outside of combat the caster can have his/her spellcasting rank of these up at a time which seems a bit too powerful (depictation of actual Astral Horror - not cheerleader as suggested by the Smilie Legend)

[Telarus_KSC]

I have given the metaphysics of spirit relations in Earthdawn some thought recently, so I'll jump on this. First up, I'd like to point out that Names don't work quite the same way with Spirits as they do with Namegivers and other physical beings. Most spirits only have "nicknames", and only a few rare spirits have "secret Names" or "true Names". Holding a spirits "true Name" in your mind is as good as a Pattern Item for summoning and interacting with "Named" spirits (Pattern Items help in Binding).

1) "Tasked Spirits" - I have a few different feelings about this. One is that some low-level taksed spirits are simply "constructed" out of the mana/magic-energy in the local region, or from mana that has been filtered by the summoner's will and/or emotions (see modern 'Chaos Magic' for the term 'Egregore'). Pocket Guardians, say, fit this archetype. Another way to look at this is that the "founders" of the disciplines (or the individual original authors of the spells) had worked out an agreement with Named or Great-form spirits for aid when requested, but only to the extent that the 'contract' requires. Your exact take on this will come down to your Barsaive's metaphysics (and Named great-form spirits may also have these secrets, spinning up minor un-Named Tasked spirits when needed by using the same spells or other secret methods).

Taking your Fog Ghost / Astral Horror spell for example - the Fog Ghost spell reaches out to one of the countless Netherplanes for a malevolent spirit willing to wreak havoc on the material plane, but then forces it into a form with concrete limitations (both physical and temproal). Astral Horror, on the other hand, forces a spirit (presumably any minor spiritual entity the nethermancer can grab with a successfull Spellcasting test) into a Fog Ghsot form (with illusion buffs!) and then totally binds it to the caster's will. It's not so much the 'driver' and the 'battery'. But because the substance it is inhabiting is illusion, others can refuse to be affected by sheer willpower once they can see it is an illusion (the Astral Horror won't evaporate when the first person disbelieves).

2) When do summoned spirits get to "act". Summoned spirits have their own Initative attribute. This get interesting, and might be worth some official errata. Purely from a "let's have fun, it's a game" standpoint, I would allow the Spirit one Standard Action on the same Initative Count is is summoned on, and then have it roll (or take the Step) for later rounds. As you pointed out, these spells already have more threads than other spells of the same circles.

Having said that, casting summoning spells before combt starts (or as an opening move) is the good tactical choice (especially if the summoning spell has a duration long enough to make it usefull to hang around). Once the summoning casters have the actual Summon Talent, they get a really big boost in power and flexability, but most of the time a Spell is going to be simpler and quicker to pull off. Also, consider the possibility to Anchor or even Name a Taksed Spirit spell. 0_o