Grimoires, Other People's Grimoires, & You

Discussion on playing Earthdawn. Experiences, stories, and questions related to being a player.
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The Undying
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Grimoires, Other People's Grimoires, & You

Postby The Undying » Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:47 am

You down with OPG? (yeah, you know me)

Facts about grimoires in ED4:
- Copying a spell into one's grimoire is the final stage in learning a spell. As such, I think it's safe to say, if it's in your grimoire, then you paid the LP and have learned it.
- You can cast from other's grimoire. There's a penalty to it, but this opens up your spell options outside of combat considerably.
- You can get copies of spells that aren't in a grimoire. 'Some organizations sell written copies of spells' (straight from the book), and even aside from that, a Patterncraft test can be used to make a copy of a spell, regardless of whether it's on a piece of paper or your grimoire.

Now, the foolish metaphysics:
- Is there something specific about a GRIMOIRE that makes it a casting source? The grimoire basically acts like a slow-to-use matrix, assuming attunement. Grimoires are significant items to their owners, which CAN make them EVENTUALLY become Pattern Items (they certainly don't start that way). However, especially if you find some newly-advanced-from-Initiate Circle 1 Adept's grimoire, which you can DEFINITELY cast from but which has almost zero real presence, is that really any different from casting from a stack of papers you either personally wrote spells on or which you purchased?
- Assuming there isn't something inherently special about a "grimoire" versus a written copy of the spell, can a magician cast from written copies of spells not technically written in a grimoire but using the "grimoire" process?

All that aside, the real question: Why is this important?

ED4 got rid of "LP for spells" as an optional rule, it's now a mandate. HOWEVER, there are some really interesting spells that are really JUST FLUFF. "Thrive" and "Nutritious Earth" are I think the shining examples - fun spells, flavorful, but at the end of the day, I really can't think of why anyone would pay LP for them. There are a lot of other useful spell that will NEVER be cast in combat, and many spells that are very much downtime spells ("Plant Feast" comes to mind).

Additionally, magicians are honestly missing a money sink to improve their value. Close and Range combatants can improve their damage throught Forge Weapon, something which has no real value to a magician unless they're a battlemage concept. Magicians don't have any comparable "Forge Effect" (though I really feel there should be). So, it stands to reason that magicians really should have a way to improve their casting, either power or utility, in a money-only way.

Resolution: Magicians should be able to, in essence, keep two 'grimoires' - one is their true pattern grimoire, which contains all their learned spells and anything else they keep in their true grimoire (research notes, etc), and one is their 'spell book', which contains random spells they want access to but don't know (and maybe backup copies of their grimoire spells in case they somehow misplace that).
- It gives magicians access to spells they otherwise wouldn't buy, with an associated penalty (can never be in matrix just like a spell accessible through someone else's grimoire, and requires additional time for grimoire attunement or risk backlash).
- It eliminates what I consider a foolish loophole in the system where a player may be crossing their finger that the random grimoire they found happens to contain a spell they want to grimoire-cast.
- It provides a money sink for magicians to be better at their job.
- The one stipulation I would add is that, while the magician can add anything they want to this spell book (assuming they can find someone from which to purchase or copy it), the spell book does NOT count as "their grimoire," meaning they get the -2 penalty and do not receive the bonus success.

Maybe this was the intent all along for ED4 and it was just not well described in the rulebook.

Anyways, with this change/interpretation, spells "learned" (i.e., spent LP on them, actually in grimoire) really become more of a "what do I want to have access to in combat or immediately ahead of combat."

Thoughts?
Last edited by The Undying on Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The Undying
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Re: Grimoires, Other People's Grimoires, & You

Postby The Undying » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:00 pm

For those mulling this over, here's how I think it could affect the game:

- Assuming infinite money, it's possible for an Adept to have every spell for his Discipline in his spell book. This is definitely a problem since it could give easy access to much higher Circle spells than appropriate. FIX: Spell book can only contain Circle or lower spells. It's a weird limitation, given all the context I used to justify the existence of a spell book, I think it's necessary. Realistically, even found grimoire through adventuring would likely be approximately Circle-appropriate, so even casting from someone else's grimoire shouldn't have high likelihood of giving significantly higher Circle spell access.

- Greater access to buff as part of combat preparation. I personally don't think this is a significant problem. Gimoire attunement takes 10 minutes and is specific to the spell being attuned. Therefore, for combat-relevant spells with duration in rounds, you're only getting one off. Meanwhile, for combat-relevant spells with duration in minutes, it is possible to have multiple spells active from the grimoire casting at higher Circle, although you need to be rushing straight in to combat as one of them will be expiring very soon. FIX: Personally, I don't think one is necessary. Magicians are now being positioned as shining with preparation, this further reinforces that.

- Greater access to environmental-affecting spells. Some spells are highly useful but are also never meant to see the light of combat. Nethermancer has a variety of these, many of which build off of "Bone Circle", which itself would never be done in-combat. FIX: Personally, I don't think one is necessary. Yes, some of them build in ways that may provide some unintended utility, but I don't think it's anything problematic.

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Re: Grimoires, Other People's Grimoires, & You

Postby Tattered Rags » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:24 pm


Telarus_KSC
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Re: Grimoires, Other People's Grimoires, & You

Postby Telarus_KSC » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:43 pm

Last edited by Telarus_KSC on Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Grimoires, Other People's Grimoires, & You

Postby Tattered Rags » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:53 pm


The Undying
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Re: Grimoires, Other People's Grimoires, & You

Postby The Undying » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:19 pm

Last edited by The Undying on Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Grimoires, Other People's Grimoires, & You

Postby Tattered Rags » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:31 pm

As the GM, you need to carefully control what you hand out to keep from destabilizing the game or letting one player constantly outshine the others. This extends from Thread Items to spells to contacts and so forth. But if a player wants something small, why not provide it? I see the GM saying yes more often than no.

The Undying
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Re: Grimoires, Other People's Grimoires, & You

Postby The Undying » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:43 pm

Definitely agree, TR (Mr Rags?). I just tend to like clear, repeatable rules versus off-the-cuff solutions. I guess it's definitely arguable if the time spent engineering a robust solution once outweighs the shorter as needed ad-hoc request/reply - as long as the ad-hoc doesn't quickly turn into more time via discussion.

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Re: Grimoires, Other People's Grimoires, & You

Postby Tattered Rags » Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:34 pm

"Rule of Fun" and avoiding one more rule and all that, TU...Undy?...The?


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