T'Skrang Beastmaster - Claw Shape and Tail Attack

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T'Skrang Beastmaster - Claw Shape and Tail Attack

Postby ChrisDDickey » Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:37 pm

I have read that for attack purposes, T'Skrang treat their tails like any other limb for making unarmed attacks.
The Claw Shape talent specifically mentions that it transforms HANDS into claws.
I would have little difficulty with a windling that wanted to make a swoop attack using claw shape with his feet to attack an opponents head with his feet while he swoops past above.
Could a T'Skrang as his sole attack make an unarmed combat/claw shape attack using his tail? IE the tail shapes into a barb of some sort?
Could a T'Skrang use the tail attack action to make two unarmed combat / claw shape attacks using his hand and his tail?

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Re: T'Skrang Beastmaster - Claw Shape and Tail Attack

Postby etherial » Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:54 pm


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Re: T'Skrang Beastmaster - Claw Shape and Tail Attack

Postby Kasbak » Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:02 pm

I'd go with the Talent Knack personally for both the tail example and the Windling using their feet example. Since the Talent is named Claw Shape (for feet claws are usually called talons) and the description specifically says hands, I would rule that channeling the magic to a different limb falls outside the normal use of the Talent and would require a knack to facilitate. The same knack could cover both examples. I'd recommend setting it at a minimum Rank of 5 and have it cost 1 extra strain per use. You could maybe go as low as Rank 3, but it's extremely rare for knacks to go that low, and with the potential utility involved, I think the standard of 5 would be right.

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Re: T'Skrang Beastmaster - Claw Shape and Tail Attack

Postby Utsukushi » Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:21 pm

The purpose of the Talent is really to make up for Beastmasters not using weapons. If we compare to a T'skrang that uses a Broadsword (Step 5) in hand and an attached Shortsword on her tail (Step 4)... even if we assume our Claw Shape user is going to further stretch the definition by picking up Swift Kick as a Skill, enhancing that Unarmed Damage through Claw Shape too...

Well, I mean, once Claw Shape is at Rank 3, then if you'd be doing the same damage as the weapon-using T'skrang if the weapon-using T'skrang made the same three attacks. The Beastmaster would get Unarmed Combat STR+3, Swift Kick STR+3, and Tail Attack STR+3; the weapon-using T'skrang would have Melee Weapons STR+5, Tail Attack STR+4, and Swift Kick STR+0.

At Rank 4, Claw Attack begins to outpace the normal weapons quickly... but as we reach Rank 4 Talents, we also are soon reaching 4th Circle, and the weapon-user gets to start picking up Thread Weapons and enhancing them significantly that way. They also have Forging options to consider, which Beastmasters inexplicably cannot apply to their fingernails, no matter how often they file them or how good the proteins in their Nail Strengthening Polish might be.

Note that, because of the Karma requirement (which is irrelevant to a Beastmaster, since they can ignore it for a Discipline Talent), the ruling isn't really abusable by Humans picking it up through Versatility and then using it to enhance their Swift Kick. I mean, they clearly can do that, but it will cost them Karma, so that's fair, and means they can't do it every round like a Beastmaster can.

...But that's in 3rd Edition. In 4th, it looks like they've brought it back to Rank+Str+3, and there no longer are Talents that require Karma, so that means it 1) IS something to think about for a Human using Versatility, and 2) A First Circle Beastmaster with Rank 1 Claw Strike using Unarmed Combat, Tail Attack, and Swift Kick is potentially adding +12 Steps to their damage, which is considerably more than any other First Circle character can potentially add to anything. I mean, let's imagine a Troll Thief with a Troll Axe and Rank 3 Surprise Strike. I'm not saying it's probable, but technically, this is within the rules. Under select circumstances (they have Surprised someone), they're rolling STR+11 damage. Now, our Beastmaster does have to make three attack rolls in a round, but that 1) has its own advantages, actually, and 2) is potentially getting STRx3 +12... with just Rank 1 Claw Shape, leaving it easy to have the full 3 starting Ranks in Unarmed Combat to offset that -2 penalty. A starting T'skrang Beastmaster with, let's say, Step 6 Strength is rolling 30 Steps of damage in a round, compared to a Troll with the maximum Strength Step of 9 and a Troll Axe - and also Swift Kick, which is pretty significant when your Strength Step is 9, stopping at 26. ...And if they both use Aggressive Stance, the T'skrang is hitting three times for Step 13 = 39 Steps of damage, while the Troll only goes to 35.

So that's... I mean, arguably, that's just the "top end" - not totally out of whack, just a bit higher than a Troll Warrior doing his very very best to be able to hit hard. But the Beastmaster in that example isn't really trying all that hard... that was just a 13 Strength and 1 Rank in Claw Shape. And I do kind of feel like a Troll Warrior or Sky Raider doing his very very best should actually be the top end, at least for regular, every-round kind of damage output. (eg., things like Surprise Strike, that can't be used all the time, should totally be able to outshine said Warrior... when they apply.)

So in 4th Edition, I think I would require the Talent Knack, if only to put it out of reach for a 1st Circle Beastmaster.

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Re: T'Skrang Beastmaster - Claw Shape and Tail Attack

Postby shadows_at_dusk » Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:55 pm

My son plays a T'skrang K'stulaami beastmaster and I have allowed him to use claw shape on the tail attack from the beginning and it is not game breaking in my opinion. Since he takes -2 steps on both attack tests, he usually only hits with one attack anyway. I have not experienced any issues allowing it with no talent knack needed.

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Re: T'Skrang Beastmaster - Claw Shape and Tail Attack

Postby Mataxes » Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:47 pm

I don't have a problem with a t'skrang using Claw Shape to enhance an unarmed attack with their tail. Even though the talent description specifically says "hands" it's intention is to allow Beastmasters to compete with the potential damage from characters that use weapons (which is part of the reason the +3 was added back in).

I'm not overly concerned with the possibility of t'skrang doubling up on a standard attack and using their tail, because when they do so all their tests take a penalty.

And in terms of the other stacking talked about, remember that weapon-based characters have other ways to increase their damage. Forge Weapon being the biggest one.
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Re: T'Skrang Beastmaster - Claw Shape and Tail Attack

Postby Utsukushi » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:50 am

I guess, doing mostly Play-by-Post, it's fairly rare (and takes a long time) for a game to make it much past 1st Circle -- so that, "Out of the gate" character comparison is more important than what people can potentially do after several years of playing. Forge Weapon isn't really available to a starting PC; using Claw Shape for Lots of Attacks in a round totally is.

But, yeah, over a little more time, I agree that the problems wash out very reasonably.


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