[3rd Edition] Archer and Wizard Optimization help

[Yuukale]

So folks, I'd like to know your opinions on both the Archer and the Wizard disciplines. My friend an I are entering an Earthdawn game with a DM known for tough challenges.

We both have some experience with the system, but not much, and we'd like to make the most out of our characters.

Also, anything broken/malfunctional that we should be wary of?

Thanks o/

[Mataxes]

Those two Disciplines are, generally speaking, pretty solid. The only thing that springs to mind as a potential problem is Flame Arrow on the Archer side (which I'll get to in a moment).

The biggest weakness you are likely to encounter is that at low Circles, neither Discipline is great when it comes to combat output. Their damage potential is limited, and neither of them can really stand up to any kind of melee combat, so if those are the only Disciplines you have, combat could be... interesting.

This shifts a little bit once you reach Journeyman Circles, when the Wizard can pick up Willforce and the effect of their spells goes up dramatically. The Archer doesn't ever really get the same kind of boost to their combat numbers. As cool as it seems, Flame Arrow in ED3 is... sub par as rather than add to existing damage output, it replaces it. If you build for it it can work.

The biggest advantage is both Disciplines have traditionally high Perception, and if I were to do a "buddy cop" scenario in Earthdawn, Archer and Wizard are just about the ideal pair. Both make really good investigators, but have a different approach, and don't step on each other's toes in that regard.

You're also not so strong in the social area, as neither Discipline has much in the way of Social talents. This isn't as much of a potential problem though, as (rightly or wrongly) social mechanics are the part of the game most commonly set aside.

A couple of good things to look at are the "Anatomy of a Discipline" articles hosted over at .

[Kasbak]

What races you pick for each Discipline could factor in as well. An Obsidiman Wizard, for example, might be able to tank his way through some of the combat at low Circles (probably not all the way to Journeyman, but probably first, second, and maybe third circle if you pick your skills right). There are a few ways to employ the unique flavor of each race with each Discipline.

[Yuukale]

Both are Elves (rp choices). Also, I was thinking of "multiclassing" my archer with Woodsman, from Namegivers of Barsaive.
Btw, what would be the best option for maximizing my dmg potential with the archer/woodsman? Which talents are good and which ones are traps choices?

As for the wizard, he's not much of a damage dealer, as much as a "controller" - if anyone here is familiar with D&D, he's the "Batman Wizard".

[to contextualize: both characters come from a D&D campaign that is touring on different universes. The DM chose to change the system to Earthdawn for our time in Barsaive due to obvious reasons xD) - We'll be starting at 4th-5th circle, likely.

Thank you all for your kind help so far

[Panda]

Wizard spells: Aura Strike (3) in an Enhanced Matrix will be your go to damage spell.

Others to must have:
Dispel Magic (1)
Healing Sleep (3)
Trust (4)
Mage Armor (5)
Solo Flight (5)

Worth considering:
Astral Sense (1)
Divine Aura (1)
Silent Converse (1)
Wall Walker (1)
Astral Shield (2)
Vines (2)
Levitate (3)
Notice Not (3)
Quicken Pace (3)
Binding Threads (4)
Buoyancy (4)
Relax (4)
Counterspell (5)
Invigorate (5)

[Assuming Fifth Circle] As a Batman Wizard, they will want 2 spell matrices, Evidence Analysis, and Search from Initiate/Novice and Willforce from Journeyman. Also, they will absolutely want to find a way to get an Enhanced Matrix. At least one, but as many as they can find. If they don't get one, Mind Dagger (1) will probably need to show up so they have a spell to cast in a single round. They will want to keep buff spells like Mage Armor in a spell matrix and recast them constantly and have the rest with their combat spells, or which may be needed in a pinch. As long as they have 20 minutes total (10 on either end), they will have free access to all of their utility spells.

For an Archer:

If you are going to hit Fifth Circle, see about taking the Bowman specialization. Steel Thought with karma is very good, and you aren't missing much with Stopping Aim. Anticipate Blow can be good or useless, it all depends on how your initiative compares to your opponents (without a booster - probably poorly). Silent Walk, Tracking, and First Impression tend to be the most useful talent options overall. At Journeyman, Evidence Analysis is a winner (it doesn't hurt to have more than one character with this, though the Wizard can take another Spell Matrix or Item History if they want something different). Josh spoke about Flame Arrow. It is a mixed bag which can work for you, but is generally considered to be only a great option for windlings.

The Woodsman will add those talent options as discipline talents, which means you can spend karma on them. You will want to do legend point shenanigans by taking them as talent options, increasing them through Archer, then picking up Woodsman so you don't have to pay the multiple discipline surcharge. Beyond those, the biggest benefit is defense with Avoid Blow (as a discipline talent - karma) and Wood Skin in particular. If you can hit fifth circle as a Woodsman, Spot Armor Flaw is worth it. It will be your primary source of damage as it reduces the requirements for armor defeating hits.

For Woodsman talent options, it is full of traps. The only talent you are likely to want is Search. This is notably true if your GM who is rough, particularly with combat (I am assuming).

Hopefully this is helpful.

[Yuukale]

Thanks a lot Panda!

I just got word from the DM and, contrary to what I believed, we're starting at 9th circle (!). I guess that leaves me room for more Woodsman/Archer shenanigans. Perhaps Archer up to the 4th circle and Woodsman to the 5th?

I think that the wizard will be fine as long as he follows your previous tips, right?

[Mataxes]

You want to be very careful -- Multi-Discpline characters don't scale the same way they do in D&D. A Multi-D C5/C4 character is not going to be in the same league as a C9. (My brain is kind of fried at the moment, so I don't know what the best approach would be, hopefully somebody else can chime in... otherwise I'll take a look tomorrow.)

If you have access to it, the ED3 Players Companion has guidelines for creating high-circle characters. That's probably where you want to look.

[Panda]

9th Circle changes things significantly. Taking multiple disciplines will not divide your circles like it will levels in D&D 3.X; it is actually much more similar to multi-classing back in AD&D 2E. Odds are reasonable your character will be anywhere from 8/8 to 9/9 depending on what your legend point expenses look like.

For your archer character, here is what I suggest:

Make Woodsman your primary discipline and Archer (Bowman) your secondary. The most important item this will bring you is a better Durability talent through all of your circles without worrying about Realigning Durability or other optional/house rules. Here is also where I admit by base 3E rules, Durability is a talent option, though I never actually played with this rule as written. In 3ER it is another discipline talent and in 4E it is a discipline feature. You should figure out how exactly this is going to work in your game.

Other than Durability, Woodsman is going to bring you an overall more useful suite of talents. Since you are skipping right past eighth circle, this means you can ignore Second Shot and move right to Quick Shot. It is a more powerful talent which is incompatible with other additional attack talents - making Second Shot somewhat superfluous.

With this in mind, let's break out some more detailed mechanics:

Woodsman Initiate/Novice talent options: Search. You may also consider Climbing, Sense Danger, and Sprint. None of these are bad, none are outstanding, though they all can be useful with minimal investment. Just be aware Sprint costs Karma to use. When looking at these, always remember you need to hit 9th Circle before taking other talents.

Woodsman Journeyman talent options: Show Armor Flaw. You may also consider Evidence Analysis; take it here rather than Archer to save legend points. If you are worried about your companions wandering off and getting into trouble, or want to be a more social character, Empathic Sense may be worthwhile.

Woodsman Warden talent options: Quick Shot. This is actually loaded with good talent options (Bestial Toughness, Critical Hit, Life Check, Tiger Spring), but one clearly rises above the rest.

From here, picking up Archer may be unnecessary, depending on what exactly you are after. The primary items it will bring to the table include: Critical Hit (Warden talent option), Direction Arrow, Flame Arrow, First Impression, Mystic Aim (available as a talent option if you want), Second Shot, Steel Thought (as a discipline talent from Bowman specialization), and True Shot.

Let's break these talents down and what they are likely to mean to you:
* Critical Hit: From a combat perspective, this is the best of the lot. It combines perfectly with Show Armor Flaw for exceptional damage. However, it requires you to make 9th Circle in both disciplines.
* Direction Arrow: A useful utility talent. Read it and see how useful you think it will be and if it is right for you.
* Flame Arrow: Josh described where this is and it depends heavily on what kind of thread items to which you have access. It requires your character to be built around it to take the most advantage of it, which is why it is so popular with windlings.
* First Impression: A solid social talent, if this is your thing. I would consider this to be one of the most enticing pieces of taking Archer, but I don't know what is right for your game, your character, or you.
* Mystic Aim: I don't like this talent, nor the others of its ilk as written (e.g. Maneuver). At Rank 9 it starts to be worth it, but it takes a round to set up and requires a test to gain a bonus equal to the rank on your next attack. This can lead to an Armor Defeating Hit, or a lot of wasted time if you cannot make the initial test. It's better to build a character who won't be shut down by a single bad roll in my opinion. This talent can be taken as a talent option for Woodsman at Journeyman, but the Archer can spend karma on the test. Practical experience, I don't think I have ever seen anyone spend karma on a Mystic Aim test because there is no carrot for rolling really high, it is just insurance against losing your turn to get a bonus on an attack.
* Second Shot: This is largely made superfluous by Quick Shot, but Second Shot doesn't require karma (which you will also be spending on Spot Armor Flaw - it's worth it). It is also cheaper on the Strain to utilize Missile Weapons and Second Shot, in addition to being a little more reliable.
* Steel Thought: As a discipline talent, this is a very good addition from Archer (Bowman). As a talent option, i.e. without the Specialization, this isn't nearly as good. The odds are reasonable your GM will have you face a Horror before you leave and this talent will be very useful in such a situation.
* True Shot: It's an utter karma hog to make it useful, but if you just need the one attack to count, then it may very well be worth it. However, it may also never come up or be left behind for more powerful options (Quick Shot and Second Shot).

This is how it breaks down for the two disciplines. My suggestion is to build your character as a Woodsman and see what you have leftover. If there is an Archer hiding in there, it's up to you.

As for your Wizard friend, there life is a little simpler, but not a lot simpler. At 9th Circle they gain the Matrix Split ability which gives them a lot more potential matrices with which to play. Combine this with their matrices which can hold a thread, and they are bringing a lot more options to the table.

Initiate/Novice Talent Options: Durability (? - figure out the rules you will be using for this), Spell Matrix. Depending on how things suss out and what they want their character to look like, more spell matrices, Conversation (if they want to have a social option), Evidence Analysis, and Search are worth considering. Don't forget talent options from Novice can be selected at Journeyman.

Journeyman Talent Options: Willforce, Enhanced Matrix, and Enhanced Matrix. From here, Orbiting Spy or a trip back to Novice are the best options.

Warden Talent Options: Armored Matrix.

Here is a new assessment of spells:

Others to must have:
Dispel Magic (1)
Healing Sleep (3)
Inventory (4)
Trust (4)
Mage Armor (5)
Solo Flight (5)
Confusing Weave (6)
Sleep (6)
Move on Through (7)
Safe Opening (8)
Observe Event (9)
Tell Tale (9)

Worth considering:
Astral Sense (1)
Bedazzling Display of Logical Analysis (1) [Only if they also have Conversation]
Divine Aura (1)
Silent Converse (1)
Wall Walker (1)
Astral Shield (2)
Vines (2)
Levitate (3)
Notice Not (3)
Quicken Pace (3)
Binding Threads (4)
Buoyancy (4)
Relax (4)
Counterspell (5)
Invigorate (5)
Doom Missile (6) [This is almost for variety, it is hard to beat Aura Strike]
Karma Cancel (6)
Razor Orb (6) [This is almost for variety, it is hard to beat Aura Strike]
Mystic Net (7)
Compression Bubble (8)
Wound Mask (8)
Absorbing Sphere (9)
Channel Raw Magic (9)

Spell preferences are based heavily on personal preferences, but I tried to skew towards spells which are likely to be useful and if combat related, on the lower side of thread counts.

Hopefully this is helpful. Please let me know if you have any questions.

Morgan

[Kasbak]

If you've got Talent Knacks on the table, since you mentioned control for the Wizard, they may seriously want to look at Subliminal Mutterings (I think that was still available in 3rd Edition. I play Classic primarily and don't have my books with me at the moment, so I can't be 100% sure). Essentially, it's the Jedi mind trick. One of my favorite tools in my Wizard's kit. I don't use it too often for fear of Questor points to Dis, but when I do the shennanigans potential is great.

[Marceli]

1 discipline mean usually 8/6(or 7) with multi (keeping similar talent cost).

As for wizard: Maybe better will be shaman ? It is more D&D wizard (with variety of spells).

Ps. Panda: you did not include Aura strike (but you mention it in other spells)