Severely distracted

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JetBlackJoe
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Severely distracted

Post by JetBlackJoe » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:21 pm

Two Adepts use the Distract Talent succesfully on the same target. What happens?
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Bonhumm
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Re: Severely distracted

Post by Bonhumm » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:47 pm

I'd say the character who rolled the highest on his Distract Test will have distracted the target enough that he would not notice the distraction from the other character.

ChrisDDickey
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Re: Severely distracted

Post by ChrisDDickey » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:34 pm

Bonhumm wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:47 pm
I'd say the character who rolled the highest on his Distract Test will have distracted the target enough that he would not notice the distraction from the other character.
Yep, rule of thumb is that only the biggest bonus/penalty from the same thing counts. The best distraction and the loudest battle bellow both count because they are different things. But all other distractions and battle bellows occurring at the same time do not.

JetBlackJoe
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Re: Severely distracted

Post by JetBlackJoe » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:06 am

Hmm, this would indeed be the simplest solution and would be in line with the wording in Dominate Beast regarding multiple instances. However, something just doesn't jive with me regarding Distract. With Battle Shout/Bellow it's easy - the effect is instant, affects the same target(s) in the same way, and naturally the best test result applies.

However, Distract has different effects on the user, the target and other characters.
Distract Talents, p. 139 wrote:The user suffers -(1 * Successes) Physical Defense vs. target.
The target suffers -(1 * Successes) Physical Defense vs. all other characters than the user and counts as pseudo-Blindsided.
Consider the following scenario:
  1. A Warrior (WAR) with the Distract Talent
  2. A Swordmaster (SWORD) With the Distract Talent
  3. Several other party members (GANG)
  4. A big, bad mean monster (BAMF)

WAR, SWORD and GANG are fighting against BAMF.
  • WAR uses Air Dance and wins Initiative with three successes compared to BAMF. He is followed by SWORD, BAMF and finally GANG.
  • WAR successfully uses Distract on BAMF and makes an attack.
  • SWORD makes an attack on BAMF, making good use of Blindside. SWORD then uses Distract on BAMF.
    1. If SWORD beats the test result of WAR, BAMF is Distracted by SWORD. Does WAR still have a reduced Physical Defense from performing his Distraction?
    2. If SWORD fails to beat the test result of WAR, BAMF is still Distracted by WAR. Does SWORD still have a reduced Physical Defense from trying to Distract? EDIT: Error in example on my part. Correct intent below.
    3. If SWORD fails to beat the Social Defense of BAMF, BAMF is still Distracted by WAR.
    4. If SWORD beats the Social Defense of BAMF but fails to beat the test result of WAR, BAMF is still Distracted by WAR. Does both WAR and SWORD have a reduced Physical Defense then?
  • BAMF attacks - but who will he attack, and what is their Physical Defense?
  • WAR makes his Air Dance bonus attack. If SWORD successfully Distracted BAMF, he applies the benefits of Blindside?
  • GANG attacks BAMF with Blindside bonus, regardless of whether BAMF is Distracted by WAR or SWORD.
I am sure you can complicate this scenario even further with different Initiative orders, more attacks, Talents et cetera.
Last edited by JetBlackJoe on Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Mind over Body. Body over Mind."
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Belenus
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Re: Severely distracted

Post by Belenus » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:11 am

I would play it like this (Of course the overall situation, the movements and actions of the characters could change those answers):
JetBlackJoe wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:06 am
Hmm, this would indeed be the simplest solution and would be in line with the wording in Dominate Beast regarding multiple instances. However, something just doesn't jive with me regarding Distract. With Battle Shout/Bellow it's easy - the effect is instant, affects the same target(s) in the same way, and naturally the best test result applies.

However, Distract has different effects on the user, the target and other characters.
Distract Talents, p. 139 wrote:The user suffers -(1 * Successes) Physical Defense vs. target.
The target suffers -(1 * Successes) Physical Defense vs. all other characters than the user and counts as pseudo-Blindsided.
Consider the following scenario:
  1. A Warrior (WAR) with the Distract Talent
  2. A Swordmaster (SWORD) With the Distract Talent
  3. Several other party members (GANG)
  4. A big, bad mean monster (BAMF)

WAR, SWORD and GANG are fighting against BAMF.
  • WAR uses Air Dance and wins Initiative with three successes compared to BAMF. He is followed by SWORD, BAMF and finally GANG.
  • WAR successfully uses Distract (lets say with 3 successes) on BAMF and makes an attack.
  • SWORD makes an attack on BAMF, making good use of Blindside. SWORD then uses Distract on BAMF.
    1. If SWORD beats the test result of WAR (with 4 successes), BAMF is Distracted by SWORD. Does WAR still have a reduced Physical Defense from performing his Distraction? (Yes, but BAMF has now -4 PD against WAR and GANG and -3 against SWORD)
    2. If SWORD fails to beat the test result of WAR, BAMF is still Distracted by WAR. Does SWORD still have a reduced Physical Defense from trying to Distract? (This is the same as below? If he doesn't beat the SD of the enemy aswell, just nothing happens)
    3. If SWORD beats the Social Defense of BAMF but fails to beat the test result of WAR (lets say with 2 successes), BAMF is still Distracted by WAR. Does both WAR and SWORD have a reduced Physical Defense then? (Yes, but now BAMF now has -2 PD against WAR and still -3 against SWORD and GANG)
  • BAMF attacks - but who will he attack, and what is their Physical Defense? (The one with the higher test result probably. Of course he wouldn't run after WAR if he somehow where to get out of BAMFs range and SWORD would still be there or other examples. This talent doesn't make the enemy stupid. He even might go for the spellcaster of GANG if he sees it fit.)
  • WAR makes his Air Dance bonus attack. If SWORD successfully Distracted BAMF, he applies the benefits of Blindside? (Yes)
  • GANG attacks BAMF with Blindside bonus, regardless of whether BAMF is Distracted by WAR or SWORD. (Correct)
I am sure you can complicate this scenario even further with different Initiative orders, more attacks, Talents et cetera.

JetBlackJoe
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Re: Severely distracted

Post by JetBlackJoe » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:09 pm

Belenus wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:11 am
If SWORD fails to beat the test result of WAR, BAMF is still Distracted by WAR. Does SWORD still have a reduced Physical Defense from trying to Distract? (This is the same as below? If he doesn't beat the SD of the enemy aswell, just nothing happens)
Ah, yes. I see I got caught up in formatting and messed up my intended example. Edited original post for clarity.
Belenus wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:11 am
I would play it like this (Of course the overall situation, the movements and actions of the characters could change those answers):
So your opinion is the opposite of Bonhumm and ChrisDDickey in allowing the full effect of multiple uses of the Talent simultaneously. Both options have their pros and cons in terms of bookkeeping in my opinion, and I'm not entirely sure which one feels right to me. Actually, there are three ways to go:
  1. Same named effects don't stack. Only one instance of Distract can be active at a time, with a higher test result replacing any former instances on the target. The original user loses his penalty to Physical Defense when his test result is surpassed by another.
  2. Same named effects don't stack. Only one instance of Distract can be active at a time, with a higher test result replacing any former instances on the target. The original user keeps his penalty to Physical Defense when his test result is surpassed by another, because there is no stacking effect on him, merely on the target.
  3. Sometimes, same named effects work simultaneously. Just like two Adepts can converse with the same target and use the Conversation Talent to improve the target's Attitude, two Adepts can Distract the same target. Their own test results decide the target's respective bonuses and penalties, with the highest result applying for anyone else.
"Mind over Body. Body over Mind."
- Verron Vittraxi, Wizard Extraordinaire

Belenus
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Re: Severely distracted

Post by Belenus » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:26 pm

If the effect would decrease the PD against everyone, I am of the same opinion as Bonhumm and ChrisDDickey.
But the effect decreases the PD against everyone except the user. So I would handle it here a bit different as described in my example.
The two distracts don't stack -> the highest counts for each target, which would 2 users = two targets.

ChrisDDickey
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Re: Severely distracted

Post by ChrisDDickey » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:26 pm

Actually, I fully agree with Belenus, My post only considered the benefits that GANG would receive (which don't stack), and not how multiple Distracts would affect WAR and SWORD like your more detailed example showed. But as Belenus showed, the same principle of only the biggest bonus/penalty applies with WAR and SWORD as well.

The stacking limit is a personal stacking limit. While two Battle Shouts applied against a single target don't stack, two Battle Shouts applied against different targets would both still function normally.

Likewise, when WAR distracts BAMF, the WAR gains a penalty against BAMF's attacks, and WAR and GANG gain a bonus when attacking BAMF.
When SWORD distracts BAMF, the SWORD gains a penalty against BAMFs attacks, This is different than the bonus when attacking BAMF, so both are in effect. WAR gains a brand new bonus when attacking BAMF (which is different from the penalty he already has, so both are in effect), and GANG gets a bonus that does not stack with what it already had, so only the biggest applies. So once again, if the bonuses are different (other than numerically), they stack.

So lets go with Scenario three, where SWORD got only two distract successes to WARs three.
When both destracts are done, and it is BAMF's turn, it may attack whomever it chooses, but WAR has -3 PD to it's attacks, and SWORD has a -2 PD.
On attacks against BAMF, everybody has -3 PD except WAR who only has -2 PD.

So once again, multiple uses of distract don't take away anything that was granted previously, each just adds different abilities in a non-stacking way. In this particular case, the bonuses in no way affect the penalties.

Just for fun, lets imagine if the talent gave bonuses and penalties that did cancel each other out. Lets imagine a Talent that gave the user a penalty to hit while attacking the target, but gave everybody except the user a bonus to hit while attacking the target. In that case multiple uses would totally mess with each other. WAR would get a -3 penalty while attacking the BAMF and everybody else would get a +3 bonus while attacking the BAMF. If SWORD distracted, hoping for a bigger bonus, he would then get a -2 penalty while attacking the BAMF, which would conflict with and not stack with his bonus, so only the -2 penalty (worst penalty trumps) would remain. War would keep his -3 penalty, and GANG would keep their +3 bonus. But like I said, that would only be the case if the bonus/penalty were exactly the same and from the same talent. I don't believe the rules have any Talent like that (for obvious reasons).

JetBlackJoe
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Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:01 pm

Re: Severely distracted

Post by JetBlackJoe » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:55 pm

I should have added more words to my question in the first post then - will elaborate on future questions! ;)

Thank you all for a good discussion about a Talent that seems simple at first, but acts strangely when you think about it.
"Mind over Body. Body over Mind."
- Verron Vittraxi, Wizard Extraordinaire

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