Pattern Items

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Far Scholar
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:43 pm

Pattern Items

Post by Far Scholar » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:01 pm

Hi there.

I have a few questions about Pattern Items as i´m having trouble understanding some things in the chapter in the players guide. Pages 213-218 and 226-233. If you know something about this subject, it would be much appreciated if you would elaborate. Thanks in advance!
- I am not sure how key knowledges tied to pattern items and their true pattern could be like.
Example: A scout adept has a major pattern item - a map that have never lead him astray. Which key knowledge could this map have?
- How do players obtain key knowledges for a pattern item? Players guide states that the player uses Item History as per normal and would then not need the resarch part as the test knowledge could be enough. This confuses me.
- Page 227 Players guide, first section under "Key Knowledges" it states that besides learning the key knowledge it is necessary to learn the truth about the knowledge the item represents. I don´t understand what this means.
- When I weave a rank 1 thread to a major pattern item belonging to my arch enemy I pay 100 legend points. Does this give me a +1 to one defense/talent etc. and that I need to weave another thread rank to gain a bonus to another talent/defence etc. Or does spending 100 legend points give a +1 to 3 defences/talents etc?

Once again. Thank you for your help.

Cheers,
Jan

LouP
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:02 pm

Re: Pattern Items

Post by LouP » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:32 pm

Far Scholar wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:01 pm
Hi there.

I have a few questions about Pattern Items as i´m having trouble understanding some things in the chapter in the players guide. Pages 213-218 and 226-233. If you know something about this subject, it would be much appreciated if you would elaborate. Thanks in advance!
I can try to answer based on 1E. Let's see...
- I am not sure how key knowledges tied to pattern items and their true pattern could be like.
Example: A scout adept has a major pattern item - a map that have never lead him astray. Which key knowledge could this map have?
Key Knowledges for an item like that might be some of more significant places the character has found or traveled to using the map. They might also include how he came to posses the map in the first and aspects of the map's origins.
- How do players obtain key knowledges for a pattern item? Players guide states that the player uses Item History as per normal and would then not need the resarch part as the test knowledge could be enough. This confuses me.
An Item History test would reveal the type of information you need to find, but won't tell you the specifics. For instance, An Item History test for the map might reveal that you need to know the Name of the adept who first created the map, but won't reveal the name itself. A character hoping to weave a thread to that pattern item would then need to learn the Name of the adept who created the map (this is the research part).
- Page 227 Players guide, first section under "Key Knowledges" it states that besides learning the key knowledge it is necessary to learn the truth about the knowledge the item represents. I don´t understand what this means.
Again, the Key Knowledge is the type of information ("The Name of the Namegiver who created the map"). The "truth" would be the name of the Namegiver ("Ardol Pathfinder").
- When I weave a rank 1 thread to a major pattern item belonging to my arch enemy I pay 100 legend points. Does this give me a +1 to one defense/talent etc. and that I need to weave another thread rank to gain a bonus to another talent/defence etc. Or does spending 100 legend points give a +1 to 3 defences/talents etc?
I don't recall the specifics here, and I don't have access to a rulebook.
Once again. Thank you for your help.

Cheers,
Jan
Hope this helps,

Lou Prosperi

ChrisDDickey
Posts: 531
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:02 pm

Re: Pattern Items

Post by ChrisDDickey » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:59 pm

This is a very confusing topic, and I personally feel that it is written in a very confusing way.
One of the biggest points of confusion is that people are always getting threads woven to a pattern item mixed up with threads woven to a thread item. Nothing in your question indicates that you are having that problem, but that is one of the first things I would always keep in mind when discussing this is make sure the the quotes being referenced are specific to pattern items and not thread items.
Far Scholar wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:01 pm
- I am not sure how key knowledges tied to pattern items and their true pattern could be like.
Example: A scout adept has a major pattern item - a map that have never lead him astray. Which key knowledge could this map have?
- How do players obtain key knowledges for a pattern item? Players guide states that the player uses Item History as per normal and would then not need the research part as the test knowledge could be enough. This confuses me.
The rules section you are looking at is saying that finding the key knowledges of a pattern item is in theory done similarly to finding them for a thread item, but in practice, the characters are more likely to do them in reverse.

Finding out that a Thread Item is indeed a magic item is fairly easy and straightforward. You spread out all your loot and your magicians Astral Sense it. The few items that have a different Mystic Defense than everything else are almost certainly Thread Items. Then you Item History them to find out what questions you need to answer, then you research those answers.

However I think there is no easy/quick test to see if an item is a Pattern Item (Note that the table at the top of page 228 is not giving the MD of the Item, it is giving the MD for a week long test of that item!). Therefor the accepted method is to research the subject of the pattern (in your example, you would be researching the scout, not the map) and look for clues that might point to his Pattern Items. For example one might learn that the Scout is known for his sense of direction and always seems to know exactly where he is, and this might lead one to suspect that his compass or one of his maps might be a pattern item. Or maybe they might not be. Or maybe he does not have any Pattern Items. In any case, you look at the Scout, and try to identify the items that are most related to him or his magic. Note that he does not have a good sense of direction because he has a map that is his Pattern Item. He has a map that is a Pattern Item because he has a good sense of direction.

Page 216 of the Players guild says "The proper magical inquiry will uncover its nature". Page 218 paragraph 3 seems to indicate that nothing short of completing a week long Item History test will confirm that it is indeed a PI.

You have to obtain the Pattern Item. Getting the Scout to voluntarily give you his favorite map might be difficult. Somebody then needs to do an Item History test to find out the exact question that needs to be asked. If the item is not in fact really a Pattern Item, any test dice other than a fumble should tell you that. If it is not a fumble, but not high enough to give any actual history, you can infer that it is a Pattern Item and that Item History will need to be repeated. A success against the Pattern Item MD will both reveal that it is a Pattern Item, and give you the Test Knowledge in a single test.

The Key Knowledge will not be about the map itself, it will be about the Scouts relationship with the map. Where did the Scout obtain the map? Where was the Scout going when he obtained the map? The Scout updates the map with new information, what was the first correction the Scout ever made to the map? The Scout has left some bloody fingerprints on the lower left of the map. Whose/Whats blood made those fingerprints?
These answers are probably not trivial. The Key Knowledge to a Major Pattern Item is probably majorly important to the subject. (IE: somebody important to him gave him the map, he was going somewhere important, he discovered somewhere important, Etc,)
For a place, the key knowledges are likely to explain the relationship between the place and the Pattern Item. What is the oldest tree in this Forest? Upon which rock did the the Great Dragon X once spend an afternoon resting?

Assuming you already did research on the Scout, and that research lead you to believe that this particular map is a Pattern Item, you probably already know the answer to the test question, so no more research is probably required. If you have not done the research yet into the relationship between the Scout and this map (if somebody just gave you the Pattern Item), then you would need to do research into the question exactly like you would research a Thread Item.

Anyway, you research the Scout to try to figure out what his pattern items might be. This will give you lots of answers to lots of questions. Then you obtain the pattern item, then you Item History it, which will give you the correct question. Chances are you already know the correct answer.
- Page 227 Players guide, first section under "Key Knowledges" it states that besides learning the key knowledge it is necessary to learn the truth about the knowledge the item represents. I don´t understand what this means.
I am not 100% certain what this is trying to say. I think it is just reiterating that you need to have a true Pattern Item. You have to have confirmed that it is a PI. You need to have done an Item History to have learned the Test Knowledge (the question) that represents the link between this item and the subjects True Pattern, and you need to have the Research Knowledge (the correct answer).
- When I weave a rank 1 thread to a major pattern item belonging to my arch enemy I pay 100 legend points. Does this give me a +1 to one defense/talent etc. and that I need to weave another thread rank to gain a bonus to another talent/defense etc. Or does spending 100 legend points give a +1 to 3 defences/talents etc?
Each Pattern Item can only support one thread. Minor pattern items can only support a single thread of up to rank 5. Major pattern items can support a single thread of up to rank 9. One thread can boost one thing listed on page 230. If you tie a rank 1 thread, it give a plus 1 to the one thing you specified when you are directly interacting with the person whos pattern item you tied the thread to). You can spend another 200 LP raise a rank 1 thread to rank 2, 300 to raise rank 2 to rank 3, 500 to raise rank 3 to rank 4 etc. This would give you plus 4 to the one thing from the list on page 230 that you specified.

If all of this is too confusing (and it is), feel free to ignore it or make up simpler house rules.
Also, Obtaining your arch enemies Pattern Item might be practically harder than it is worth. If you can sneak in and steal his favorite map, it would probably be not much harder to sneak in and bash his head in with a mace.

Far Scholar
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:43 pm

Re: Pattern Items

Post by Far Scholar » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:55 am

Wow - thank you guys for the thourough responses. It makes a lot more sense now.

The only thing that still confuses me are regarding my last question.

I´m aware that minor pattern items allows for rank 5 and maximum 1 bonus. A major pattern item allows for rank 9 and maximum 3 bonusses. A core pattern item allows for rank 15 and maximum 5 bonusses.
If I weave a thread to a minor pattern item i pay the legend point cost according to rank and get a bonus to a talent/defence/mystic armor and so forth but only one bonus.
If I weave a rank to a major pattern item paying the legend point cost according to rank - do i get +1 to one thing or +1 to three things OR do i need to weave additional ranks to be able to take advantage of getting up to three bonusses?

Cheers,
Jan

ChrisDDickey
Posts: 531
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:02 pm

Re: Pattern Items

Post by ChrisDDickey » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:02 pm

You stated the limitations correctly.
For a normal Pattern Item (but not a Group Pattern Item - which has different restrictions), one thread increases multiple things.

As the example on page 231 says
After successfully studying a Major Pattern Item belonging to Larren, Kira weaves a Rank 3 thread (this will cost 100 + 200 + 300 lp) to three abilities: her Melee Weapons talent, her Physical Defense, and her Social Defense. When interacting with the Thief, Kira’s Melee Weapons talent is increased by +3 Ranks, while her Physical and Social Defense are increased by +3 each.
So you specify what bonuses this thread will give you. You weave one thread, you pay the LP for each rank in that thread, and you get Rank bonus in each specified ability while interacting with that person.

Far Scholar
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:43 pm

Re: Pattern Items

Post by Far Scholar » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:29 pm

Thanks mate!

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