New Enchanting knack

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ChainWolf
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:50 am

New Enchanting knack

Post by ChainWolf » Mon Nov 02, 2020 7:58 am

Craft Consumable
Talent: Patterncraft Requirements: Rank 5
Restrictions: Elementalist 5, Shaman 4
Skill Use: No
The adept can use Patterncraft to create consumable items (but not poisons).


Does anyone know of a reason not to have this exist?
or can anyone think of something wrong with this knack as written?

Sharkforce
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:39 am

Re: New Enchanting knack

Post by Sharkforce » Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:55 am

I believe healing aids specifically not being on the list of stuff that you can pick up with a knack is deliberate.

whether or not you care about that is up to you.

ragbasti
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:09 pm

Re: New Enchanting knack

Post by ragbasti » Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:40 pm

Healing aids are covered by general Alchemy, the reason why there is a separate knack for poisons is that this makes sense for Scouts and Thieves.
They both have an overall theme that justifies poison creation (Thieves possibly becoming assassins and Scouts using poisons they found in nature to their advantage)
The creation of healing aids is not really something integral to any of the disciplines (even those having healing spells) but is rather covered via the devotions that Questors of Garlen get.
But if you want it in your game, it's perfectly fine to do it this way. Though, you should really add Nethermancer to the list of Spellcasters who can take this knack as they literally get spells emulationg the potions you can normally buy.

ChainWolf
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:50 am

Re: New Enchanting knack

Post by ChainWolf » Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:13 pm

I am aware that Alchemy covers all the non Thread item creation including what this knack gives.
I don't get why consumable creation is specifically not allowed to be done magically and if that is the case would love to know why.

Good point about the Nethermancer should they get it at 5th circle?

ragbasti
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:09 pm

Re: New Enchanting knack

Post by ragbasti » Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:28 pm

Probably around the time they can learn the Recovery spell.

And it is covered magically, with Questors of Garlen getting the Alchemy Devotion that is limited to Blood Charms and Healing Aids. I wasn't saying it is not allowed to be done magically but that I don't think that it's a particularly great fit since healing is very much the domain of Garlen, not of some particular Discipline. Opposed to that, the Poisons thing is very much fitting the Thief/Scout.

Sharkforce
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:39 am

Re: New Enchanting knack

Post by Sharkforce » Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:31 pm

quite frankly, I think healing aids are probably the most powerful thing you can have the crafting ability for by a significant margin, combined with the fact that it is also far more likely to be something you use over and over, while the other abilities frequently represent something you might rarely do and you'll make a substantial investment for in the LP and training.

immunity to poison, instantly healing wounds, healing even when you're out of recovery tests, nigh-infinite last chance uses, all of these are exceptionally powerful abilities that come from healing aids. if you were to craft a thread item that made you more difficult to poison, you might be able to pull out a bonus as large as the keelix's poultice would give you (and that's nowhere near as strong as a kelia's antidote), but you likely wouldn't be able to give a free poison resist test instantly, and you'd have to invest a heck of a lot of LP into it.

now, combine that with the rules for crafting multiple alchemical items that allow you to produce extras on a good roll, and not only does that mean you can get healing aids for an incredibly low price if you have a high enough step and can add karma etc, but it also means you essentially have a license to print money too. well... to mint coins I guess, this being a society that doesn't use paper money. but you get the point.

ChainWolf
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Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:50 am

Re: New Enchanting knack

Post by ChainWolf » Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:22 am

Actually thinking about it Nethermancer does not really seem to thematically fit making these items, there magic is a bit ur darker? That's why they make blood charms.

My reasoning for Elementalist is not just they get some heal spells. Elementalists as well as getting some of the best healing spell in game also get cold purify a talent that cures disease & poison. Only 2 other disciplines get access to this talent.
Also in previous eds one of the specializations of an Elementalist talked about is enchanter - so making a potion of giants leap, or a poison antidote seems completely within the disciplines purview.

Like wise a Shaman is the tribes medicine man, they are all about using that herb/incense to assist with a spirit quest and at the same time using an unguent to help a wound heal.

I can see an argument for allowing Wizard to learn the knack, with there knowledge themes.


As far as consumables being powerful and being used to print money goes any character can learn Alchemy and do the same thing. Not allowing this knack for that reason is not going to stop it.

Sharkforce
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:39 am

Re: New Enchanting knack

Post by Sharkforce » Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:53 am

eh, it really isn't remotely the same with a skill as with a talent. with a skill, you're looking at spending years to develop the rating to 10. you're going to get there a heck of a lot more quickly and easily with a talent, and you can boost it further in a variety of ways... karma, group patterns, blood oaths, thread items, and so forth.

you might be theoretically able to roll just as high with the skill, but it's a lot less likely...

Panda
Posts: 148
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Re: New Enchanting knack

Post by Panda » Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:25 am

Greetings,

To start—and this is extremely important to me—Shamans are not tribal. They are not medicine men. Tribe appears nowhere in their write-up. That did appear in previous editions, but it was burned to the ground and that earth salted. For good reasons. Because it ranged from mildly to deeply offensive, depending on where you stood on the whole thing. An argument can be made 4E's take on Shaman has only being a spellcaster and the name in common with Shaman from previous editions. Awesome. Mission accomplished.

As to why aren't there knacks to give access to consumables and there never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever will be? Because it breaks the healing economy. Hell, it breaks the already tenuous seemingly adventuring-based economy. It effectively provides twice the resources to a group. As it is, it may not be worth investing in alchemy. It should be a choice. With such a knack, it's a requirement. Any group with be insane not to. It provides an incredibly powerful ability (and currently the only reason to learn the skill at all) for a pittance. Whatever the Legend Point cost, it's a pittance.

Beyond setting and mechanical reasons, none of the Discplines are a good fit for this. Arguments can be made a particular Discipline seems like a good fit for access, but they're never compelling arguments. They're arguments that start with the end and work backwards to see what square peg can be hammered best into the round hole. While brewing potions may be something we associate with classical ideas of magicians, it's never been part of what they are in Earthdawn.

This being said, you should absolutely do what you want at your table. No one can or will stop you. However, there are very good reasons why it doesn't exist and why it won't ever exist, despite a desire for it. Which was the question.

ChainWolf
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:50 am

Re: New Enchanting knack

Post by ChainWolf » Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:32 am

I apologise. I should not have used to terms tribal or medicine man.


In my head I was thinking Shaman has an animist belief structure (as shown by the write-up).
That belief means each animal (I include humans as animals, and find it sad I feel this has to be said), plant and rock is a person. Being a person does not require human-likness. A person gains meaning and power through interacting with other persons.
Specifically in this case it would mean the belief the spirit of a particular plant, if treated the correct way, would assist others in viewing the spirit world by other persons breathing in the smoke created by burning the spirits physical representation. in game terms that would be incense of Astral sight. It could just as easily be a cream smeared onto someones eyelids. Mechanically the only way to do this seems to be alchemy.

I am coming to realise that anything not specifically released in 4th ed is not cannon so disciplines specializations are not a thing. Therefore the assumption that an Enchanter should be able to brew an unguent is flawed both because it's a hold over from different systems and because there IS no such thing as an Enchanter specialization in the game - as a side that's probably a good thing as the actual rules for a lot of the specializations are a bit problematic/non existent in previous eds.

I was not square peg round holing though! I was looking at Disciplines practices and belief and extrapolating forward. This is why I said a Nethermancer should not have access to it and was on the fence about Wizard.

You obviously feel strongly about the knack not existing for balance reasons and fair enough. Rightly or wrongly your reasoning tells me you think healing items serve a purpose of draining silver from adventuring parties as well as keeping them alive.

There are three primary reasons I came up with the knack.
1) it seemed a glaring omission
2) because Alchemy is a skill - but explaining that should be another topic
3) this last reason is irrelevant to Earthdawn - my table is playing in the GM's home brew setting using Earthdawn rules set. We are on the cusp of reaching 6th circle and from 1st to 5th circles inclusive as a party of 5 have gotten hold of exactly 3 booster pots and 1 last chance salve. This fits the setting we are playing in (none of us players are complaining) but does cause unintended issues that the GM has acknowledged.

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