Even more questions: spells

[Bonhumm]

I think that the difference between "knowledge baking" and "baking" is the difference between book learning and practical application.

That is to say, somebody can know a lot about baking, able to recognize all sorts of obscure ingredients, have many recipes memorized, and be able to recognize foreign foods, but still be a horrible baker, unable to properly regulate the temperature of a wood fired oven, sometimes forgetting to add ingredients, and producing burned or unevenly cooked goods, etc.

On the other hand, somebody with good "baking" but no "knowledge baking" would know only a few recipes, but be able to consistently produce those few items even under trying circumstances, but would do poorly at improvised or substituted ingredients.

This is how I was trying to explain this to the player who asked me the question but it left a bad taste in my mouth (no pun intended). We go back to the 'why does this only apply to cooking/baking/stuff like that?

The same argument could be made for the Melee Weapon skill:
- A Melee Weapon Knowledge where someone can know all the proper techniques and their history but still be inapt with a sword
- A Melee Weapon General Skill where someone is fast and dexterous with a sword but unable to improvise with a mace.

I know that on paper it makes sense but then every single skill would need to be split like this. As a driver I know both how to handle a vehicle AND the rules related to driving. Having only half of this would make me unskilled at 'driving'.

Anyway, I guess I'll hatch some home rule about this.

2 - Agreed. As GM I try to steer new players away from taking "Carpentry" or "Brewing" in favor of something artistic, portable and quickly demonstrated. That is not to say that a well made roof that displays excellent craftsmanship will not demonstrate to your neighbors that you have your stuff together. It is just much harder to demonstrate to the guys in the next village over.

Ya, I can see now why you had 'home-ruled' an artistic skill on top of the artisan one

3 - Personally, when a PC makes a map, I have then roll twice. Once with their mapmaking skill and PER to see how accurate the map is, and a 2nd time with mapmaking skill and CHA for how beautiful the map is. All actual artistic checks are made using CHA.

But that's the whole point. Mapmaking is not 'artistic'. It's a map. Yes a map can be beautiful, but not because it's a map, it's because someone used Illumination on it, THAT'S the artistic part. The illumination would have been nice with or without the map.

Artisan: Mapmaking - Artistic: Illumination
Artisan: Tailoring - Artistic: Embroidery
Artisan: Craft weapon/armor - Artistic: Metal/leather/wood carving
Artisan: Cooking, baking - Artistic: ... I dunno, presentation?
Artisan: Making a coffee at Starbuck - Artistic: the calligraphy of the name on the cup


I'm just saying that the 'prove you are not horror-mark' thing should have been an artistic skill not an artisan and a clearer border should have been drawn between them, especially for the examples.

[etherial]

But that's the whole point. Mapmaking is not 'artistic'. It's a map. Yes a map can be beautiful, but not because it's a map, it's because someone used Illumination on it, THAT'S the artistic part. The illumination would have been nice with or without the map.

Here's the first hit when I search for "beautiful map". How many of the "Top 20 amazing beautiful maps you've ever seen" are illuminated at all?

http://geoawesomeness.com/top-20-amazin ... ever-seen/

[Bonhumm]

Here's the first hit when I search for "beautiful map". How many of the "Top 20 amazing beautiful maps you've ever seen" are illuminated at all?

http://geoawesomeness.com/top-20-amazin ... ever-seen/

I was using 'illuminated' for that would have been the 'technology' used then. The maps on this link are colored, drawn with perspective, sometime even animated. None of those were 'required' for the map part, it just make then look nice but the map itself (artisan) would have served it's purposed in flat black and white, the rest is purely artistic and would look nice on anything, map or not.

For example:

Map (artisan): http://earthdawn.wikia.com/wiki/File:Map_Barsaive.svg
NICE map (artistic): https://www.deviantart.com/maik-schmidt ... -674609864

[ragbasti]

As was mentioned here earlier by someone else, I agree that every character has to pick up an Artisan Skill that has to be easily demonstrated for the sake of performing it when necessary.

Other than that I couldn't disagree more with the idea of having to split things into crafts and arts.

Artisan skills represent means of self-expression for namegivers. This self-expression gets tainted when the character is being controlled by a horror and was therefore chosen and the best way to spot tainted people.
This self-expression is also why this is based on Charisma.

Taking the cooking vs baking for example:
If you have ever baked before, then you'll know that baking is f***ing science. At least if you want consistent results. Baking is all about accurate ratios between the different ingredients, this is something you need to KNOW. Therefore it can easily be categorised as a knowledge skill.

Cooking on the other hand is just taking the ingredients to have and making something that looks and (hopefully) tastes amazing. The looking part will be optional here.
It is much more of a process and making things taste the way you want. It allows little changes here and there without any great consequences, other than messing up and ruining he dish.

You can be a great cook and suck at baking, the opposite also applies.

I'm a hobby cook myself who hates baking, so this whole comparison is slightly biased but the baking part is still very much true.
My girlfriend on the other hand can't even cook a decent spaghetti with tomato sauce but bakes amazing cakes because she's really good at following those recipes to the letter

The whole debate about trying to make things logical for your players is a common mistake I see from people who are new to a system and try to apply other system's or their own logic/standards.
Sometimes a simple "this is how this system works" to your players is much better than some random answer you pulled out of your nose. Talk to the players about these concerns and explain why artisan skills are so important in the world of earthdawn.

Maybe just start your next night with this, so everyone is on the same page going into the future. I've always felt that Artisan skills are an essential part of the setting but have joined many groups at conventions who just scoffed at the concept.

For new players I always use the following explanation:

Artisan skills are the one thing that everyone believes to be the sure-fire way to spot a horror-tainted namegiver. After being locked up for centuries in their Kaers, there are too many stories supporting this.
Every mother makes sure that their child picks up a way to self-express. Every grandmother tells spook stories about the life within the Kaers and how the demonstration of artisan skills was an almost ritual-like habit that everyone had to go through regularly.

It might be the greatest superstition in the world of Earthdawn but literally everyone, except from the most knowledgeable and most powerful entities in this world, accept this as an irrefutable fact. Nobody knows if it works 100% of the time but everybody knows at least one instance, be it truth or tale, of this method having worked and having averted great calamity.

Don't always try to immediately adapt the system to your personal RPG habits and personal logic.
If you take the fluff away, then you diminish your players' ED experience, just my 2 cents.

[Bonhumm]

All I'm saying is that if I need 'bakery' as a Knowledge skill (so my brain 'know' how to bake) AND as a general or artisan skill (so my hands 'know' how to bake) that would be a real pain and would need to be applied to anything else.

Don't always try to immediately adapt the system to your personal RPG habits and personal logic.
If you take the fluff away, then you diminish your players' ED experience, just my 2 cents.

I've been playing Earthdawn for 21-22 years so far and near exclusively. It's just that I'm trying my hand at GM'ing for the first time so I'm being asked questions I had never considered before (a culinary rivalry between 2 players is both original and completely unexpected).

[ChrisDDickey]

All I'm saying is that if I need 'bakery' as a Knowledge skill (so my brain 'know' how to bake) AND as a general or artisan skill (so my hands 'know' how to bake) that would be a real pain and would need to be applied to anything else.

Once again, "Practical Knowledge" optional rule on page 187 of the players guide pretty much eliminates the need for somebody to have both the Artisan Skill and the Knowledge Skill. So everybody who does it or has ever done it can have the real Artisan skill that covers both doing it and knowing about it. The knowledge skill is reserved for those who have just read about it.

Note that "The book of tomorrow" had a whole section about farming under the open sky in real weather. The generation that emerged from the kears had Knowledge Farming (open sky's), but no skill in Artisan Farming (open sky's). The generation that followed had the real Artisan skill that was more practical than the little bit that could be recorded in one book. Almost nobody else except scholars had to worry about this dichotomy.

[Bonhumm]

Guess who got another question?

I'm pretty sure I read something about this but can't find it.

Hypothetical situation: I throw a throwing dagger (step 2 dmg+3 STR) at long range AND in defensive stance. Since I got -2 from long range and -3 from the stance, does the dagger do... step 0/nothing damage or is there a 'bare minimum' rule somewhere?

Thank you again.

[ottdmk]

Looks to me like your dagger runs out of momentum just as it reaches the target. A tiny "tink" against the body and nothing more.

[Mataxes]

(Writing from my day gig, so I don't have the book handy.)

IIRC, there's a bit in the Game Concepts chapter that talks about bonuses and penalties and says penalties can't reduce a Step below Step 1 (d4-2). That's the closest thing to a "minimum" that exists. At the same time, you can't use armor/shields where the combined Initiative penalty reduces your Initiative below Step 1. (I forget whether that's in the Combat or Equipment chapter.)

You can handle the example with the thrown weapon either way, really. I can see it either way, depending on what you want to emphasize. ("A chance, even a tiny one" versus "physics doesn't work that way.")

[Bonhumm]

Thank you for your answer again.

More question

About recovery tests, the books says:

Characters may spend Recovery tests as they wish, but must meet the following
conditions:
• Upon waking from a full night’s rest, an injured character (with 1 or more Current Damage) must make a Recovery test.
• At least one hour must pass between Recovery tests.
• The character must spend one minute without engaging in physical activity or taking damage.

Characters must also wait at least one hour after engaging in combat before they can make a Recovery test. This time must be spent in a state of relative rest; the character cannot undergo any strenuous physical activity during this time.

The second underlined statement seems to make the first underlined statement superfluous: If I have to spend an hour not doing any physical activity I then obviously need to spend a minute (in fact, 60 minutes) of not doing any physical activity. 4th Edition rules are usually well written so seeing something that *seems* superfluous might means I'm missing something here.

So: why does it says I have to spend 1 minute without engaging in physical activity when I also need to spend an hour doing the same?

Thank you again.