Stacking (ED4)

[Slimcreeper]

It seems like I read that one design principle the devs were working with was to make sure the combat disciplines were the best at dealing damage - so spellcasters don't completely overshadow the warriors at warrioring. However, if it is unsatisfying, you could write in a couple of artillery spells. That would be the easiest fix, I think.

[The Undying]

Correct. Sadly, I can't remember where I saw it, and cruising around the likely subjects, I can't find a near enough statement. I *could* be wrong, but I do recall seeing somewhere a statement akin to "With this edition, we wanted to make close/range combat the meaningful source of damage."

For what it's worth, the imbalance isn't a NEW problem, it just got worse in ED4.

[Mataxes]

I don't recall the particular statement you're thinking of exactly, but it's more that in earlier editions, there came a point where the amount of damage a magician could put out in upper Journeyman circles could make the physical combatants little more than a screen to keep baddies away from the caster. (I mean... Death Rain? Bone Shatter? Blizzard Sphere? All nasty AoE spells that can take out whole groups in a round or two.)

So, to start off we wanted to introduce some new spells (both to explore some new design space and not have ED4 be just tweaked versions of old stuff). This does end up putting casters in a bit more of a support role for now, but when we expand spell selection, we'll have a better sense of what physical characters can do, and (I hope) will be able to balance the new or redesigned spells around that metric.

[Loba]

Well, this wasn't where I was aiming the original conversation. But it is interesting.

Just to recap, really I had two points/questions with the original:

• Does stacking of threads, Pattern Items and Thread Items work as I think it does?
• If so - then the challenge rating for standard beasts is mostly out of whack as a Journey level group should be fairly buffed out.

That being said - I'd like to talk about the points Undying brings up:

• Mages are underpowered in combat. I'm not really convinced. They certainly don't have the high damage but breaking bones and dishing out 4-9 wounds to a single character in one spell or even multiple characters if threaded correctly is very potent though not as high on outright damage. Not to mention the Illusionist just makes people stop or do what they want unless they have a very high MD. Also, let's not forget that magicians can cast higher Circle than they are. So your 5th Circle Elementalist might actually pull off a 7th Circle Death Rain.
• Combat classes are underpowered in social settings or explorations. This seems somewhat true. Still - Wind Catching and Great Leap make exploration maneuverability impressive. And there are certainly enough Talent Options to use social manipulations regularly though not as effective as your Theif or Troubadour. Finally - a character can add a new Discipline or just gain skills. I find that skills are underused in Earthdawn (given the training time) but exceptionally good.

My real concern is that some mechanic for making your average Griffin more dangerous and to have NPCs that are in posted Adventures be more fleshed out. The captain of the Triumph (was this Barsaive at War?) was reasonably well done. But what about the troops under his command? They needed more fleshing out to really be a challenge from a group of PCs that was truly attempting to affect the outcome of the war and used thread stacking to make themselves capable of it. I have to say, I did love the non-adept statistics. Watch out for those Theran Soldiers - they were seriously well trained and numbered in the 100s.

Generally, the campaigns we have are more roll-playing than combat. Better to scare off the army before it arrives than to fight it - or even better to recruit them to the player's side. Still, when combat does occur - it would be nice to see the high Circle NPCs truly be frightening instead of off the shelf.

~ Loba

[The Undying]

Sorry if my meandering commandeered the thread.

Best point-blank answer I can give: As long as something it not the EXACT SAME thing, it stacks.

An example Circle 8 Warrior. Some of these items should never exist, and you likely won't have this many caster companions, but you get the idea. Also, I've added some extra fun-ness:

- Dexterity (DEX), Step 8
- Melee Weapon (MW), Rank 8
- Second Attack (SA), Rank 6
- Momentum Attack (MA), Rank 4
- Swift Kick (SK), Rank 2
- Group Pattern Thread, Melee Weapon (MW_1), Rank 5
- Group Pattern Thread, Second Attack (SA_1), Rank 3
- Group Pattern Thread, Momentum Attack (MA_1), Rank 1
- Thread Item, Sword (wielded during attack), Attack +2
- Thread Item, Ring, Close Combat Attacks +3
- Thread Item, Scabbard, Melee Weapon (MW_2) +2
- Spell, Monstrous Mantle (Illusionist, Circle 2), Close Combat Attacks +2 (no extra threads)
- Spell, Aspect of the Fog Ghost (Nethermancer, Circle 2), Close Combat Attacks +3 (no extra threads)
- Spell, Combat Fury (Wizard, Circle 3), Close Combat Attacks +2 (no extra threads)
- Aggressive Attack, Close Combat Attacks +3

I could keep piling on more, but with JUST these, we've got, in one round:

- Melee Attack: Step 38 [ DEX of 8 + MW of 8 + MW_1 of 5 + MW_2 of 2 + Attack bonus of 15]
- If that succeeds, Second Attack: Step 32 [ DEX of 8 + SA of 6 + SA_1 of 3 + Attack bonus of 15]
- If that succeeds, Momentum Attack: Step 28 [ DEX of 8 + MA of 4 + MA_1 of 1 + Attack bonus of 15]
- regardless of previous successes, Switch Kick: Step 25 [ DEX of 8 + SK of 2 + Attack bonus of 15]

Note how all the close combat attacks stack together and affect all the tests, and then each individual Talent enhancement stacks together to further modifying those tests.

When would things NOT stack? If the same Wizard tries to cast Combat Fury on you while the old one is still active, one of them would fall off. If a different Wizard tries to cast Combat Fury on you while the old one is still active, one of them would fall off. That's it, really....

[Dougansf]

That's the problem (for me).

I agree with a lot of this.

Some of it has always been the case with Earthdawn. Some of it is new to 4E.

[The Undying]

As to one of your other thoughts, which goes back off-topic-ish:

That being said - I'd like to talk about the points Undying brings up:

• Mages are underpowered in combat. I'm not really convinced. They certainly don't have the high damage but breaking bones and dishing out 4-9 wounds to a single character in one spell or even multiple characters if threaded correctly is very potent though not as high on outright damage. Not to mention the Illusionist just makes people stop or do what they want unless they have a very high MD. Also, let's not forget that magicians can cast higher Circle than they are. So your 5th Circle Elementalist might actually pull off a 7th Circle Death Rain.

Both your examples are Nethermancer, and Nethermancer really is the combat caster. Pain is temporary, but yes, it can be pretty brutal. Bone Shatter can go a little wide, if you either put the extra threads into or roll well. Wither Limb is probably my favorite, if you can cause that wound. Plus, Nethermancer benefits from many of their spells targeting Mystic rather than Physical.

Still, in light of the last example I gave you with the Warrior, let's look how well the Nethermancer fares in the combat.

- Pain, 0 Threads, Circle 3, Range 10 yards, 1 Target, Effect Step N/A
- Wither Limb, 3 Threads, Circle 5, Range 20 yards, 1 Target, Effect Step WIL+6/Mystic
- Bone Shatter, 2 Threads, Circle 6, Range 20 yards, SUCCESS + Extra Threads Targets, Effect Step WIL+6/Mystic

We have to stop RIGHT HERE, pretty much. Pain can resolve in a single turn. Both the others? Nope, not even with an Enhanced Matrix, the Nethermancer has to take two turns - one to Threadweave, one to cast. Want to make the spell better, either with more targets or more effect (damage)? We're probably at three turns now, two of those weaving, and that's if you pull all the threads off in those two turns.

Our Warrior has gotten off potentially as many as 8 or 12 close combat attacks at varying levels damage. Note he is not necessarily limited to the same opponent - Second Attack only requires same weapon and a previous success, not same target. Swift Kick is just an extra attack. Ok, now we can continue.

- Perception 8
- Willpower 8
- Spellcasting 8
- Willforce 8
- Group Pattern, Spellcasting, 5
- Group Pattern, Willforce, 5
- Random Thread Item, Spellcasting +2
- Random Thread Item, Spellcasting +1
- Random Thread Item, Spellcasting +2
- Random Thread Item, Willforce +2
- Random Thread Item, Spell Effect +2
- Random Thread Item, Spell Effect +1

... And that's pretty much as far as that dog's will fetch. Spellcasting of Step 26 [ 8 + 8 + 5 + 5]. With THESE spells, given they target Mystic, they'll land shy of an abysmal roll. And you'll score multiple successes.

You're lucky, again, because Nethermancer is the combat caster, and extra successes on these spell actually increase damage output, either through more targets or through improved Effect. Many don't. Base Effect Step of 32 [6 + 8 + 8 + 5 + 2 + 3] for both the actual hitters. And that's if you want to pour the Strain into Willforce, with Nethermancer have far less to throw around.

I didn't go into that Warrior's Damage, but here's a quick peak there:

- Strength 8
- Broadsword 5
- Forge Weapon 7
- Crushing Blow 8
- Thread Item, Broadsword, Damage +2
- Thread Item, Crushing Blow 2
- Spell, Monstrous Mantle (Illusionist, Circle 2), Damage +2 (no extra threads)
- Spell, Aspect of the Fog Ghost (Nethermancer, Circle 2), Damage +3 (no extra threads)
- Aggressive Attack, Damage +3
- Each Extra Success +2

We're talking Step 40 [ 8 + 5 + 7 + 8 + 2 +10 ], plus any extra successes. Per. Hit.

The Warrior is likely hitting at least twice per round. Using Bone Shatter, the Nethermancer is likely casting every third round. We'll give the Nethermancer the benefit of the doubt and say he hits four targets. In three rounds, Warrior gets 6 x Step 40 damage (plus extra successes, and those will happen). In three rounds, Nethermancer gets 4 x Step 32 damage (no extra from successes, that's already factored into the targets).

[The Undying]

Right, Dougansf. That's why I'd mentioned (maybe in another thread?) that there was always a lack of balance, ED4 just made it worse.

[saryakan]

Isn't the rule of 3 a thing anymore?
I remember back in 2. Edition there was the optional rule, that an action could only profit from the three highest "buffs".

Personally I think that what can take the balance out of whack quite a bit is a group pattern. The difference between having one or not can be rather immense.
I find less problems with providing a lot of higher tiered thread items for my players since I control the boni that they give as well as the pace at which they 'unlock' the ranks and gain the keyknowledge. If it turns out, that a thread item is more powerful or useful than I initially thought, I can always change those ranks, that the player hasn't woven to yet, to be less useful. I can wait and see how it plays out.
With group patterns I can neither control what boni they choose, nor can I gate them. (beyond controling how much LP to give)

[Lys]

Honestly i would argue that the real problem is not the damage disparity; notice how nobody complains that Troubadours are mediocre combatants. Rather the issue is that spellcasters just get a lot less time to do interesting things in combat compared to other Disciplines. You see, spellcasters are supposed to trade power for flexibility, especially when it comes to combat prowess. This is a trade people are willing to make, but everyone wants and deserves a fair share of the spotlight, and in combat spellcasters often times don't get it.

It can be very disappointing to spend one, two, or more rounds weaving together a spell only to have it fail due to a bad roll, or simply not have much of an effect compared to to sticking sharp objects into people for the same number of rounds. The Spellcaster going "I Threadweave," just doesn't compare to the Swordmaster being all like, "I Taunt, Anticipate Blow, Manoeuvre, Melee Weapon, Second Weapon." Now combat is one of the main things Swordmasters do, so that's when they should shine, but even the non-combat classes get more interesting things to do every turn. This because hitting the enemy with your sword is inherently more interesting than weaving a thread, and anyone can do that. The disparity doesn't end there, since on top of that if you fail to hit someone with your sword it is way less frustrating than if you fail to weave a thread. With a failed attack roll you can simply try again next turn, but a failed Threadweaving test puts you one turn further away from getting to do something actually interesting like casting a spell, which incidentally might itself fail.

One thing that occurred to me that might ameliorate this somewhat is a rule that woven threads are not lost until a spell is successfully cast (or the rule of one happens). That way you don't get the immensely frustrating result of spending three turns weaving a spell together only for it to fizzle. The spellcaster is free to try again next turn without having to spend another three turns re-weaving it. This would synergize pretty well with the extra threads rule and encourage its use in combat time.