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LouP wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:58 pm

So the same Talent learned by the same character costs more if he chooses to learn it later?

Perhaps a more pertinent question is why would a single talent be listed more than once? This make no sense to me.

As Oracle said, it isn't actually listed twice, and in most cases the scenario being laid out here (where a character chooses one of their Novice options as a Journeyman talent) probably doesn't happen that often. After all, when you hit C5 all those Journeyman options become available, and those are (generally) better/more powerful choices than your Novice options.

ottdmk wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:58 pm

Josh, how does it work under Etherial's scenario? Say someone goes from 1st Circle to 2nd without choosing a 1st Circle Talent Option. Have they lost that "slot" or can they now pick two talent options at 2nd Circle? And if they go from Novice to Journeyman with "empty slot(s)" can they still use them at the Novice cost?

They don't lose option slots if they haven't filled them.

So in this example, the character has 2 optional slots (one C1, the other C2) they can fill with Novice talent options. When you choose the option, it's assigned to a particular circle, and that is what determines the cost for purchasing/advancing the talent. It's still considered their "First Circle" talent, even if (for some reason) they don't fill it until Circle 4, or 5, or whatever.

And they don't have to wait until they circle up, right? They can fill an empty Optional Slot, or Discipline Slot for that matter, at any point?

Slimcreeper wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:43 am

And they don't have to wait until they circle up, right? They can fill an empty Optional Slot, or Discipline Slot for that matter, at any point?

Unless using the "Specific Training for Talent Options" Optional Rule (ED4PG454), a character can fill the Circle X Talent Option Slot with 8 hours of meditation any time after achieving Circle X.

Of course my seasoned powergamer-friends now forego learning optional talents at least until Journeyman level. :\

There are often quite good talents in the novice tier as well, they are really missing out on some good stuff. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

Since the cost of learning these optional talents is not based on the current circle of the character, but on the circle of the talent slot with which they are learned, it is relatively cheaper to learn them on a later circle.

Of course, the players want to learn novice tier talents. Just not while they are at novice tier.

Well, that's their option of course. Still, I prefer having my 3rd Standard Matrix while I'm still a Novice. (Actually, I prefer having it right away at char gen. ) And I find most characters I dream up, spellcasters or no, the Options are too good to put off, even if it does slow down Circle advancement somewhat.

Mataxes wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:32 pm

LouP wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:58 pm

So the same Talent learned by the same character costs more if he chooses to learn it later?

Perhaps a more pertinent question is why would a single talent be listed more than once? This make no sense to me.

As Oracle said, it isn't actually listed twice, and in most cases the scenario being laid out here (where a character chooses one of their Novice options as a Journeyman talent) probably doesn't happen that often. After all, when you hit C5 all those Journeyman options become available, and those are (generally) better/more powerful choices than your Novice options.

Fair enough (about not listing talents twice - which is a Good Thing (TM)), but what is the rationale for the increased cost? This also makes no sense to me. If the cost needs to change (and I don't see why it does) I would think the cost should be lower. As the adept gains experience, learning "lower level" abilities should be easier, not harder. To use a karate metaphor, learning a technique traditionally taught at Orange belt is almost always going to be easier for for a Brown belt student vs. an Orange belt student.

Take Care,

Lou Prosperi

LouP wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:02 pm

Fair enough (about not listing talents twice - which is a Good Thing (TM)), but what is the rationale for the increased cost? This also makes no sense to me. If the cost needs to change (and I don't see why it does) I would think the cost should be lower. As the adept gains experience, learning "lower level" abilities should be easier, not harder. To use a karate metaphor, learning a technique traditionally taught at Orange belt is almost always going to be easier for for a Brown belt student vs. an Orange belt student.

The way I see this is it has not been ruled for realism but rather for game balance and simplicity. I know it sounds ironic to say "simplicity" on a rule that spawned two pages of comments. But the goal is to make every talents costs the same for a said tier of circle. Also, that keeps the cost constant with all the previous editions.