Lol very similar Undying.... Obsidiman warrior, Elven thief, Dwarf elementalist, Dwarf Wizard)
He doesnt care if rubbish in combat... he just plugs a hole and trys not to go down, whilst cursing profusely)
He is a good fit for me, rough and ready healer/punch bag. Just got 4th circle and elemental water/earth spear, not used yet....i love the class and what they can do.
Ive linked this thread to our current GM ( a very long known and much suffering friend) and hoping he reads it and maybe does some middle ground house rule on it depending on whats said))
Ive put off looking up earthskin.... it will just upset me!
TMD- and buffing
Re: TMD- and buffing
I have a few house rules about this issue:
Spells Targeting Allies- When casting on an ally, the caster may choose a TN of the targets MD, OR a TN of 6. If the TN of 6 is chosen, then the Spellcasting roll may only generate a number of extra successes equal to the casters Tier (1 for Novice, 2 for Journeyman, etc.).
Group Pattern items that increase MD do not impede beneficial spells cast by Group-mates.
Re: TMD- and buffing
Thanks for that Dougansf.
Im happy other GMs/players out there have seen there may be an issue with the rules in this respect, and there are some house rules out there.
I do like the success numbers limited to tiers....and also pattern items not impeding beneficial spells
Best idea i had come up with was:
-As simple action lower TMD up to half for 1 round
-Thats players TMD for round including enemies
-Successes based on full MD,not reduced one
its a bit clunky...but would mean at least a caster can have a proper chance at getting his basic buffs on himself, whilst maintaining the bonus successes for physical types.
Dougansf yours is much more caster friendly...but im at the stage where getting any house rule in so casters can regulaly buff themselves would make me more than happy)
Im happy other GMs/players out there have seen there may be an issue with the rules in this respect, and there are some house rules out there.
I do like the success numbers limited to tiers....and also pattern items not impeding beneficial spells
Best idea i had come up with was:
-As simple action lower TMD up to half for 1 round
-Thats players TMD for round including enemies
-Successes based on full MD,not reduced one
its a bit clunky...but would mean at least a caster can have a proper chance at getting his basic buffs on himself, whilst maintaining the bonus successes for physical types.
Dougansf yours is much more caster friendly...but im at the stage where getting any house rule in so casters can regulaly buff themselves would make me more than happy)
Re: TMD- and buffing
Glad you like it.
I'd also recommend using the Chain Casting rules that one of the developers posted on their blog:
http://pandagaminggrove.blogspot.com/20 ... sting.html.
You get the reward of having buff spells already in place at the cost of having other spells in your matrixes. I find it takes a lot of the headache out of having buff spells, while still having a realistic cost. It also means more of the casters combat rounds are spent contributing to the combat, not buffing themselves or others.
I'd also recommend using the Chain Casting rules that one of the developers posted on their blog:
http://pandagaminggrove.blogspot.com/20 ... sting.html.
You get the reward of having buff spells already in place at the cost of having other spells in your matrixes. I find it takes a lot of the headache out of having buff spells, while still having a realistic cost. It also means more of the casters combat rounds are spent contributing to the combat, not buffing themselves or others.
Re: TMD- and buffing
Since we're sharing group compositions, the Unbroken are an Elven Troubadour, Human Thief, Troll Warrior, Elven Elementalist, Tskrang Wizard, and my foreign Human Swordmistress. A former member is the previously mentioned Elven Nethermancer, whose player had to drop out a bit before we hit Circle 6. In addition there were two PCs who did not join the group pattern: We started the game with an Ork Cavalryman who stuck around for the first couple of circles, but the player had to leave due to work scheduling, though we kept the character around as an NPC for a kaer-crawl. That same kaer-crawl also involved us hiring an Obsidiman Warrior as extra muscle, but player and character wandered off with his share of the loot afterwards. Finally there's the Human Weaponsmith and Dwarf Warrior NPCs, also not Unbroken, who've been tagging along until we can get them back home. We mostly use them to guard stuff or watch our backs while the rest of us deal with whatever is the problem.
(To add that up, this means that during the kaer-crawl we had 8 PCs and 3 NPCs in the party. Yeah it was crowded.)
To the best of my knowledge our Elementalist doesn't really bother with self-buffing. There's little point, as Elementalist buffs are close combat focused and he doesn't even have a melee weapon. Our approach to combat is to buff before battle, never during, so once battle starts he stops buffing and starts blasting. Similarly if by the time battle is joined the Warrior hasn't put up Wood Skin or Earth Skin, then he doesn't waste turns doing it, he just starts shield bashing people into the ground and finishing them off with his sword. The Troubadour is an exception in that he may use his first turn to Inspire Others, but mainly he prefers to before battle, not during. Thanks to this approach the failure rates of buffs don't matter as much, because characters get to make the attempt two or three times. It also means more combat turns spent on killing things.
Since the Elementalist doesn't buff in combat, his favourite combat spells are Earth Darts, Lightning Bolt, and Fireball. In one memorable instance, my character Stormbreaker decided to leave our defensive position in order to perform a solo deep strike into an enemy formation of two dozen Horror-cultist assassins. Her target was the two mercenary spellcasters in the back, an unnamed Wizard and a Nethermancer known as The Serpent. In order to support her the Elementalist didn't cast something like Air Armour or Flameweapon, no he cast a Fireball right on top of her after weaving an extra thread to exclude her from the blast. It was awesome, lots of cultists on fire. The deep strike succeeded too, even though Stormy went into battle with only 23 hit points left (it had been a long day). All the cultist attacks either missed her physical defence or bounced off her armour, though the Wizard took off 10 points with Aura Strike. She took a further 11 Strain cutting her way through the cultists and then savagely beating on the Serpent, at which point the Wizard panicked and dragged her away. Then a cultist hit Stormbreaker in the back for 2 damage and she fell over unconscious.
If you do the math, you might notice that with Air Armour up, Stormbreaker would have been able to keep fighting for another round. However, you'd be missing the fact that without that Fireball disrupting the enemy formation, she may not have been able to break through in the first place. Fireballs don't just do damage and set people on fire, they also cause partial blindness, all of which was necessary for her to break through. The successful removal of the enemy spellcasters from the field was, i believe, critical in the Unbroken's subsequent victory in that fight. Proving once again that a good offence is a critical part of any successful defensive strategy. Though now Stormbreaker has custom made Opalescent Wings of Fire charm and can just fly over opponents on rainbow flame wings, making deep strikes much easier.
(To add that up, this means that during the kaer-crawl we had 8 PCs and 3 NPCs in the party. Yeah it was crowded.)
To the best of my knowledge our Elementalist doesn't really bother with self-buffing. There's little point, as Elementalist buffs are close combat focused and he doesn't even have a melee weapon. Our approach to combat is to buff before battle, never during, so once battle starts he stops buffing and starts blasting. Similarly if by the time battle is joined the Warrior hasn't put up Wood Skin or Earth Skin, then he doesn't waste turns doing it, he just starts shield bashing people into the ground and finishing them off with his sword. The Troubadour is an exception in that he may use his first turn to Inspire Others, but mainly he prefers to before battle, not during. Thanks to this approach the failure rates of buffs don't matter as much, because characters get to make the attempt two or three times. It also means more combat turns spent on killing things.
Since the Elementalist doesn't buff in combat, his favourite combat spells are Earth Darts, Lightning Bolt, and Fireball. In one memorable instance, my character Stormbreaker decided to leave our defensive position in order to perform a solo deep strike into an enemy formation of two dozen Horror-cultist assassins. Her target was the two mercenary spellcasters in the back, an unnamed Wizard and a Nethermancer known as The Serpent. In order to support her the Elementalist didn't cast something like Air Armour or Flameweapon, no he cast a Fireball right on top of her after weaving an extra thread to exclude her from the blast. It was awesome, lots of cultists on fire. The deep strike succeeded too, even though Stormy went into battle with only 23 hit points left (it had been a long day). All the cultist attacks either missed her physical defence or bounced off her armour, though the Wizard took off 10 points with Aura Strike. She took a further 11 Strain cutting her way through the cultists and then savagely beating on the Serpent, at which point the Wizard panicked and dragged her away. Then a cultist hit Stormbreaker in the back for 2 damage and she fell over unconscious.
If you do the math, you might notice that with Air Armour up, Stormbreaker would have been able to keep fighting for another round. However, you'd be missing the fact that without that Fireball disrupting the enemy formation, she may not have been able to break through in the first place. Fireballs don't just do damage and set people on fire, they also cause partial blindness, all of which was necessary for her to break through. The successful removal of the enemy spellcasters from the field was, i believe, critical in the Unbroken's subsequent victory in that fight. Proving once again that a good offence is a critical part of any successful defensive strategy. Though now Stormbreaker has custom made Opalescent Wings of Fire charm and can just fly over opponents on rainbow flame wings, making deep strikes much easier.
Re: TMD- and buffing
@Lys
Nice tale, sounds like an epic fight)
I still think the numbers against the casters is harsh for little reason.
I agree buff before u fight, or dont prat about doing it in combat much.... its very frustrating buffing before though, below 5th circle, when you have 2 casters...you can only weave one extra thread so if you cast extra targets they last less than a minute...or if u cast duration to minutes on everyone individually it takes forever rolling with failures.....at 5th when can weave 2 threads is much better.
I know air armour isnt unbelievable but at lower circles when a casters physical defense is about 7-8, and his phys armour 4-5...that +3 saves a lot of wounds...especially as most casters dont have massive toughness....so i hope u can see why i think its a bit silly its so much tougher for them to be able to get buff effects to work on them.
Air armour was just an example....plenty of other spells offer similar bonuses
@Dougasf
Love that link to the developers blog... id not seen that before... id just started to question my gm on possibility of running multi minute duration buffs continually, and he grumbled at me a lot.... its good to see it kind of what the developers had in mind with how they developed the spells)
Nice tale, sounds like an epic fight)
I still think the numbers against the casters is harsh for little reason.
I agree buff before u fight, or dont prat about doing it in combat much.... its very frustrating buffing before though, below 5th circle, when you have 2 casters...you can only weave one extra thread so if you cast extra targets they last less than a minute...or if u cast duration to minutes on everyone individually it takes forever rolling with failures.....at 5th when can weave 2 threads is much better.
I know air armour isnt unbelievable but at lower circles when a casters physical defense is about 7-8, and his phys armour 4-5...that +3 saves a lot of wounds...especially as most casters dont have massive toughness....so i hope u can see why i think its a bit silly its so much tougher for them to be able to get buff effects to work on them.
Air armour was just an example....plenty of other spells offer similar bonuses
@Dougasf
Love that link to the developers blog... id not seen that before... id just started to question my gm on possibility of running multi minute duration buffs continually, and he grumbled at me a lot.... its good to see it kind of what the developers had in mind with how they developed the spells)
Re: TMD- and buffing
Panda's Grove is a great resource for GM's. I really like his various Namegiver stats, but also his collection of creatures by territory is great.Calamrin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:51 pm@Dougasf
Love that link to the developers blog... id not seen that before... id just started to question my gm on possibility of running multi minute duration buffs continually, and he grumbled at me a lot.... its good to see it kind of what the developers had in mind with how they developed the spells)
The limit of Spellcasting ranks for number of spells to keep Chained is very important.
Novice Tier + Spellcasting Rank 3 = Air Armor at +3 PA for 8 minutes on up to 3 Targets.
Journeyman Tier + Spellcasting Rank 6 =
Air Armor at +4 PA for 11 minutes on up to 6 Targets.
OR
Air Armor at +3 PA for 11 minutes on up to 7 Targets plus 5 other buffs.
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The Undying
- Posts:696
- Joined:Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:25 pm
Re: TMD- and buffing
In the spell matrix system in Earthdawn, chain casting Just Makes Sense. However, like any other house rule, expect your GM to put their own spin on it. Our table has a bit more of a soft rule set for it, but here's the guidelines, for those curious:
On the actual spell selection, definitely run what feels interesting, fun, useful. Table dynamics will also significantly change what spells/Talents are useful and when. At Circle 6, I still used chain cast Air Armor religiously (we don't really play ED anymore, it broke my heart), basically for the reason you mention: wound avoidance. Our Warrior has used Wood Skin far more during combat than outside, but that's because combat usually found us, not the other way around.
- The castings have to be reasonable. That limits both quantity and constraints. Quantity means that you only get to keep a few spells up at once (you're adventuring, not sitting with an set of hourglasses doing nothing but watching seconds for spell expiration). Constraints means minimum minute duration (chain casting round duration isn't logical to us), ranged (chain casting touch range isn't logical), etc.
- The environment must be suitable. Climbing a mountain? Yeah, no, you're generally not chain casting, you're focused on climbing. Walking through the streets of Throal? Yeah, no, you're not chain casting, unless you want to look really weird. Trying to be stealthy? Etc, etc, etc.
On the actual spell selection, definitely run what feels interesting, fun, useful. Table dynamics will also significantly change what spells/Talents are useful and when. At Circle 6, I still used chain cast Air Armor religiously (we don't really play ED anymore, it broke my heart), basically for the reason you mention: wound avoidance. Our Warrior has used Wood Skin far more during combat than outside, but that's because combat usually found us, not the other way around.
Re: TMD- and buffing
Undying that makes total sense to me.
-Chain casting but only when makes sense.
-On spell selection im still low circle and no pattern item matrix, or any enhanced matrix(s) so am very conservative with whats attuned (usually earth darts, air armour, heat weapon)...as soon as have a few more options with another circle plan to be more diverse where possible.
-im not holding my breath on on the companion....and my GM is a sensible guy, so i think some decent option will be agreed on.
-On the wound thing...its just so easy fora caster to get put out of action with a couple of mediocre hits on them....thats what gets me so riled up about casters struggling to buff themselves, while you make your tanks into monsters!
i Joined the boards less than a week ago,and have to say all the responses ive had been great....constructive if been agreeing or disagreeing ...just accurate facts and genuine opinions.
Appreciate it.
-Chain casting but only when makes sense.
-On spell selection im still low circle and no pattern item matrix, or any enhanced matrix(s) so am very conservative with whats attuned (usually earth darts, air armour, heat weapon)...as soon as have a few more options with another circle plan to be more diverse where possible.
-im not holding my breath on on the companion....and my GM is a sensible guy, so i think some decent option will be agreed on.
-On the wound thing...its just so easy fora caster to get put out of action with a couple of mediocre hits on them....thats what gets me so riled up about casters struggling to buff themselves, while you make your tanks into monsters!
i Joined the boards less than a week ago,and have to say all the responses ive had been great....constructive if been agreeing or disagreeing ...just accurate facts and genuine opinions.
Appreciate it.
-
The Undying
- Posts:696
- Joined:Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:25 pm
Re: TMD- and buffing
On the wound thing, you can think of it as a in-game justification for changing the way you equip, advance, and play your character, if you're so inclined. I did this with my Elementalist - he was getting dragged into Close Combat so often that he started becoming more tanky (spell load out, new Skills, and looking at taking Weaponsmith as a second Discipline). There are also things you could do mechanically: shield (although, sadly, our table doesn't allow magicians to use shields, despite no published restriction), armor (Forged Blood Pebble is pretty awesome), Absorb Blow charms, and Group Thread (but talk to your GM about this - the types of advancements available via Group Thread can be a bit game warping).
In my party, our Scout actually racked up far more wounds than my Elementalist. Yeah, she was in the thick of it a bit more (hybrid Close/Ranged), but it was also the way she was equipped (Blood Pebble with barely any forging) and built (low Toughness, so low Wound Threshold). It became a bit of a running joke that coming away from combat with only one wound was a good day for her.
I would encourage you to look beyond combat, though. ED 4 changed combat to be much more about Close/Ranged. Life is far more dangerous for a magician in combat nowadays, and aside from semi-abandoning the magician role for more tank-y stuff, it's just part of the system now to be played within. By contrast, though, magicians tend to have more options available outside of combat than non-magicians (or, maybe, they did in previous editions when the spell count was higher). Sadly, this doesn't negate the MD issue (a number of these useful spells/Talents still target MD, meaning landing it on yourself can be difficult), but it can help change the perspective from a negative to a positive.
Also, specifically considering wounds, don't forget about Fire Heal as an Elementalist. It's been pretty standard for a Knack there to heal wounds, which doesn't help you from getting them but really helps you get over them. I imagine this will return in the ED4 Companion, whenever it comes out. Doesn't help your Wizard friend, but しょうがない.
In my party, our Scout actually racked up far more wounds than my Elementalist. Yeah, she was in the thick of it a bit more (hybrid Close/Ranged), but it was also the way she was equipped (Blood Pebble with barely any forging) and built (low Toughness, so low Wound Threshold). It became a bit of a running joke that coming away from combat with only one wound was a good day for her.
I would encourage you to look beyond combat, though. ED 4 changed combat to be much more about Close/Ranged. Life is far more dangerous for a magician in combat nowadays, and aside from semi-abandoning the magician role for more tank-y stuff, it's just part of the system now to be played within. By contrast, though, magicians tend to have more options available outside of combat than non-magicians (or, maybe, they did in previous editions when the spell count was higher). Sadly, this doesn't negate the MD issue (a number of these useful spells/Talents still target MD, meaning landing it on yourself can be difficult), but it can help change the perspective from a negative to a positive.
Also, specifically considering wounds, don't forget about Fire Heal as an Elementalist. It's been pretty standard for a Knack there to heal wounds, which doesn't help you from getting them but really helps you get over them. I imagine this will return in the ED4 Companion, whenever it comes out. Doesn't help your Wizard friend, but しょうがない.