Spell Acquisition

[The Undying]

I've been thinking back to the comments Panda made when I asked him about Spliced Weave. The general impression I'm kind of left with is that there's an expectation that magician spell purchasing lags their Circle advancement. Like so many things, as players advance, they accumulate LP faster, making lower-Rank items effectively "cheap." Meanwhile, the cost of buying at-Rank stuff is kind of prohibitively expensive in that it makes a fairly large impact in LP which could otherwise be spent towards advancement.

From this perspective, lets assume that magicians are more likely to pick up spells say three Circles below their actual Circle. Lets also assume that a magician has 7 Perception and Threadweaving Rank equal to their Circle. Given that, if a Circle 4 magician is picking up Circle 1 spells, and these spells are effectively their primary Spellcasting repertoire, then they should be pulling off two Threadweaving test successes per turn (Threadweaving Step 11 [ 7 + 4 ] versus Weaving Difficult 5 [ 4 + 1 ]).

This post is really just meant to pull together two ideas. First, I'm curious if other people see this trend at their tables, especially if players aren't granted a free spell at advancement. Second, since I talk a lot about the Threadweaving tax, I'm curious if people thing that 2 successes per turn is "good enough" if this is the likely pattern of spell use.

[Dyrmagnos]

Im Elementalist of 7-th circle and i have my elemental familiar with spellcasting and 7 spells (granted by his strength). Excluding circle 1 he has more spells of circle 2+ than me.

Every spellcaster should by row have theoretical 2 matrix objects that you want to wave a threads at + 3 spells per circle that we want to buy = we get multiplied cost of your actual circle talent at every circle of your advancement.

For example 9700 LP (3x 2100 for spells + 2100 for matrix object + 1300 previous circle object advance) for my 7-th circle spellcaster when lvl up a novice talent to rank 8 cost is 3400 LP - almost 3x value of that.

With that every spellcaster that want to buy a spells would advance for every circle significantly slower and this difference will grow up with every circle.

An with the second topic - higher circle spells are stronger and capability of better/faster casting lower circle spells is quite fair for me - its like when fighter is hitting weak enemy with low defences he gets a huge dmg bonus that is multiplied by better anticipate blow/spot armor flow etc...

[The Undying]

I'm not sure I'm following your logic. Or maybe you're just making a leap I am not, which is that a magician should reasonable be able to access most spells in their repertoire at the same time (meanings more matrices).

- a magician gets two free matrices. They are always rank equal to Circle. This isn't great, but it allows them to basically cast any spell they have via matrix.

- a magician gets half a dozen ish spells at Circle 1 & 2 as part of initiation. This is likely enough to get them a reasonable distance. Since you sighted Elementalist, we can use that as an example: air armor as a primary chain cast, earth darts as combat workhorse, air mattress and heat food as the big out of combat impacts.

- ice mace & chain at Circle 3 would likely be the next big draw.

With that, we chase the numbers to demonstrate what I said in the opening post.

- at Circle 3, this spell costs about half the cost of a rank increase in a Discipline Talent (300 v 500). He only has seven Discipline Talents, so a slowdown of that magnitude is noticeable in comparison to companions. Grabbing multiple Circle 3 spells would be very noticeable. Average of one success on a Threadweaving roll.

- at Circle 4, spell cost less than half (300 v 800). Still noticeable with 8 Talents to raise. Buying multiples would be very noticeable. Average of one success on a Threadweaving roll.

- at Circle 5, spell cost is a quarter (300 v 1300). One spell purchase isn't really noticeable. Multiple spell purchase is still noticeable. Average of two success on a Threadweaving roll.

- at Circle 6, which is the threshold of suggested, the cost of the spell is negligible at about 1/7 (300 v 2100), even more compared to his two new Journeyman Discipline Talents (300 v 3400), and he needs to raise ten Discipline Talents. Buying 2 or 3 is a speed bump but not huge. Better than average chance of two success on Threadweaving roll. We have two matrices at Circle 6 from the free Talents, so this can definitely be cast.

If we move to your example, a Circle 7 magician, the picture doesn't change much. Circle 4 spell costs 500, rank 8 in Discipline Talent costs 3400 (still almost 1/7), still better than average chance to get two Threadweaving successes, still have have a Matrix capable of holding it.

Maybe we're talking past each other. My post is specifically about how the Threadweaving tax interacts with my takeaway from Panda that "magicians buy spells when they become cheap and therefore can weave more effectively because of the difference between Threadweaving Step and Weaving difficulty." The Threadweaving tax is the "to make my spell good / better / even make a dent, I need a bunch of extra threads, which means turns lost weaving." Lost turns to Threadweaving has always been a thing in ED, but it got far worse in ED4.

You are talking something much different, it seems: it takes more LP to be a decent magician than to be a decent non-magician. We have to buy spells (otherwise we can't actually use our primary talent, Spellweaving). Unless we are only happy with having two spells available in combat without Reattunement strain, we have to consistently improve Matrix Talents / Objects. And none of this is an exchange for something in non-magicians: magicians want to improve their Option Talents just like non-magicians. This has ALWAYS been a thing in ED. It's also a different problem.

Also, for what it's worth, I'm not arguing FOR this perspective. I'm only trying to fully explore it. That's why the two questions: (a) is this how people are seeing things play out (i.e., players only buying spells at considerable Circle lag for cost reasons), and (b) since characters would normally receive 2 Threadweaving successes with this lag, does that address my oft previously lamented Threadweaving tax.

[Dyrmagnos]

Now think about someone who want to have 3 spells from every circle in his repertoire (that's 50% of existing spells) and he is buying that at every circle - how it should looks like.

We have adept at circle 1 - probably he would not get new spells till circle 2.

Circle 2 - now he have to buy 3 spells (i'm not sure that in this edition spellcasters get free spells till circle 5 - can't find it in PG) - 3x200 = 600 LP its cost of 2 talents that he wants to lvl up.

Circle 3 - next 3 spells - 3x300 = 900 LP so it is almost cost of 2 talents to lvl up.

Circle 4 - 3x500 = 1500 LP - still almost 2 talents and on this circle i would be thinking about creating spell matrix object what is another 100+200+300+500 = 1100 LP

Now stop for a while and analyze how far is he behind his colleagues. I'm taking data from Gamemaster Guide from 3-rd edition (don't have now access to 4-th)

Circle 1 - is the same.
Circle 2 - probably he would advance 1 session later so he would get less LP from this advance - like 600 less (1200 total)
Circle 3 - same situation 1 session later (900 spells + 1200 from last circle + 500 from later advance = 2600) - 5 talents to lvl at circle 4
Circle 4 - probably he would be 2 session in the back so it would multiply with spell matrix object (maybe other disciplines would get 1 thread item more but its not fair at all ) so its (1500 spells + 2600 circles before + 4200 from difference + 1100 from Item = 9200 LP )

I don't want to calculate more but it will build up faster and faster. This calculation would be different if you are giving LP from monsters in addition to circle award.
When reaching circle 5 probably other characters would have circle 6. At circle 6-7 i would allow to create another Matrix Object (maybe with enchanted matrix ) so its next milestone.

Generally when you want to have 3 spells from every circle at this circle (it can be less if you get free spell till circle 5) you land with huge disadvantage when compared to non casters.
Maybe if you are giving LP calculated by average circle in group (difference would grow not so fast) or when monsters awards would be significant part of LP gained this is not so big problem but if every adept gets his LP alone and you are not fighting so often it is just huge.

[The Undying]

At this point, all I can really say is you're super off-topic. I am not talking about someone buying a spell at their circle, let alone three, nor is my question how that affects advancement. Again, my point is not about the cost of spells, it's about the Threadweaving [turn] tax and how lagging spell purchase plays into that. Even when cost is a factor, the EXPLICIT premise I have laid out repeatedly is that the magician is buying "cheap" spells. To specifically address your cost concerns, though, if you're building off the assumption that a player would want three spells from each Circle, which may not be a fair assumption in the first place, we get these numbers:

- Circle 1: No cost increase, all free from initiation.
- Circle 2: No cost increase, all free from initiation.
- Circle 3: No cost increase, spell acquisition lags by 3 circles as per the premise of this thread.
- Circle 4: No cost increase, spell acquisition lags by 3 circles as per the premise of this thread. Character should have 3x Circle 1 spells from initiation.
- Circle 5: Let's say 2x Circle 2 spells to bring them up to 3 spells/Circle. Cost this Circle: 400 LP. Total cost to Circle: 400 LP. Cost of advancement from Circle 5 to 6: 10,400 (8x 1300 for Rank 6 in Novice Talents; full cost to bring new Journeyman Talent to Rank 6). TOTAL Percent lag versus others to achieve Circle 6: 4%.
- Circle 6: 3x Circle 3 spells. Cost this Circle: 900 LP. Total cost to Circle: 1300 LP. Cost of advancement from Circle 6 to 7: 28,800 (8x 2100 for Rank 7 in Novice Talents; 1x 3400 Rank 7 in circle 5 Journeyman Talent; full cost to bring new Journeyman Talent to Rank 7). TOTAL Percent lag versus others to achieve Circle 7: 4.5%.
- Circle 7: 3x Circle 4 spells. Cost this Circle: 1500 LP. Total cost to Circle: 2800 LP. Cost of advancement from Circle 7 to 8: 52,300 (8x 3400 for Rank 7 in Novice Talents; 2x 5500 Rank 7 in circle 5 & 6 Journeyman Talents; full cost to bring new Journeyman Talent to Rank 8). TOTAL Percent lag versus others to achieve Circle 8: 5.5%.

So, again, using this premise, there is a very negligible delay in the magician advancing. This delay will get bigger as things move forward, but it'll never be insane - looking at the curve and just making broad statements, I might say 25% lag to reach Circle 15. AGAIN - BASED ON THIS PREMISE that magicians are buying "cheap" spells. Also, for what it's worth, magicians will likely also be picking up incidental low-level matrices (likely topping out at Rank 5/6) as part of their Thread Items, where advancement on those is likely on par with their non-magician counterparts. These provide the desired ability you've mentioned for having greater access to cast more spells mid-combat, and BASED ON THIS PREMISE, these items would served the magician handily through Circle 8/9.

To come back to topic again:

the two questions: (a) is this how people are seeing things play out (i.e., players only buying spells at considerable Circle lag for cost reasons), and (b) since characters would normally receive 2 Threadweaving successes with this lag, does that address my oft previously lamented Threadweaving tax.

[Dyrmagnos]

Ok sorry for offtopic - but for me situation when you don't want to buy new spell when you reached new circle is just insane - game mechanics shouldnt promote or even requires this type of building your character. Where is building your legend when the best spell of 7-8 circle mage would be circle 5 spell that he get for free during promotion to Journeyman?

How are you learning new techniques in spellcasting if you have no contact with spells at your circle?

When considering new students, many magicians want to review a candidate’s grimoire. This enables the teacher to examine the student’s past experiences and gauge his knowledge of the Discipline’s spells. Some magicians refuse to instruct adepts who do not maintain grimoires or treat their grimoires poorly, because they believe such students lack respect for the traditions of their Discipline and the craft of spellcasting.

Its from Players Guide - thinking that ill buy only low circle spell is pure powergaming and shouldnt be promoted in game as concept that is only worth of following.

Think as magician adept - ill never try to learn high circle spell because ill advance in my discipline slower because of that... Normal mage would try to learn as strong spells as he can because it would bring him faster to real proficiency.

If it totally not fit this discussion rules please create separate topic to ask people how they are solving that in their games and how wider audience see problem.

Thx The Undying for light caution

[The Undying]

If it totally not fit this discussion rules please create separate topic to ask people how they are solving that in their games and how wider audience see problem.

If YOU would like to explore that concept, then YOU are free to post a separate topic about it.

For me, LP requirement disparity between magicians and non-magicians just is what it is. Yes, for a magician to use spells at their circle, magicians are all going to advance more slowly than non-magicians if those spells require LP. This is a long-standing problem, it's been discussed up and down, I'm not really sure there's more ground to cover on it. One would anticipate that this is baked into the system in that the cost of the effects is commensurate with the effects generated - given that spell damage per-target is measurably outperformed by close combat BUT spells usually provide secondary effects (AoE, buf, debuf, etc), it's really hard to say quantitatively that the cost of a spell (LP for acquisition, LP for matrix, lost turn[s] in Threadweaving) is costed commensurate with its effects.

There used to be an optional rule to eliminate LP cost for spells. That was removed in ED4. I recommended it for inclusion in the upcoming Player's Companion in the relevant thread, but there's no guarantee it will be. A table doesn't NEED this as a published optional rule, but to me, it's exclusion from ED4 Player's Guide, and it's potential continued exclusion in the Player's Companion, is a clear signal from the designers that they don't feel it really belongs in ED4 and shouldn't be used.

Again, I'd really love for this segway to die away and hopefully hear some on-topic input.

[Kosmit]

Guys I think you are missing the point that non-magician will use one weapon most of his time (if not all). Same for magician using combat spells. So he doesn't have to take a lot of them.

There is no need to rush advancement and spending LP on spells is not a waste. It's like weaving threads into thread items which cannot be lost.

[The Undying]

*I* am not missing it. Again, this is a MASSIVE segway from where I wanted this conversation to go. Whether a magician wants one spell per Circle or 3 is really immaterial to my questions.

[Telarus]

I've been thinking back to the comments Panda made when I asked him about Spliced Weave. The general impression I'm kind of left with is that there's an expectation that magician spell purchasing lags their Circle advancement.

Ok, this is all just my opinion, but it is based on experience with the world since 1e.

"This is not a bug, it's a feature." This mirrors the different advancement rates in AD&D/old-school D&D, and serves to balance the caster's versatility moment-to-moment to the other classes. At least this was the general impression given since 1e. Magicians spent LP on more things than the other "focused" Disciplines, but hey, at least you're not chewing through your Toughness Steps to make enchantments permanent, eh? (Enchanting in the old-school games costs a point of Constitution to cast "Permanence" I much prefer Blood Magic Damage....)

Like so many things, as players advance, they accumulate LP faster, making lower-Rank items effectively "cheap." Meanwhile, the cost of buying at-Rank stuff ("Spells"? -Tel) is kind of prohibitively expensive in that it makes a fairly large impact in LP which could otherwise be spent towards advancement.

Only for completionist "gotta catch them all" types. The other spellcasters realize they are unique in that they can advance their power vertically (improve talent ranks, attempt initiation into the next Circle), _or_ grow their base of influence wider (acquire more spells). Past circle 5 things get WEIRD anyway, what with Spirits and all. Any Journeyman Elementalist or Nethermancer worth their salt is going to have at least one contingency contract setup with their favorite sentient blob of astral space to come to their aid if shit really goes down. How do we measure how much LP that is worth?

From this perspective, lets assume that magicians are more likely to pick up spells say three Circles below their actual Circle. Lets also assume that a magician has 7 Perception and Threadweaving Rank equal to their Circle. Given that, if a Circle 4 magician is picking up Circle 1 spells, and these spells are effectively their primary Spellcasting repertoire, then they should be pulling off two Threadweaving test successes per turn (Threadweaving Step 11 [ 7 + 4 ] versus Weaving Difficult 5 [ 4 + 1 ]).

This is a fair analysis. But again, I'd want to stress the idea that simply knowing a _single_ spell of your current circle (and having the talent ranks required to matrix cast it) is what makes you a spellcasting adept of that circle. There is an up-front cost - you have dedicated 4 of your starting talents, and maybe a few more later, to your main "trick". This being "see where it says 'Spell Matrix' on my character sheet? I can make that into any of these other 'effect powers' at will." Even Shadowrun deckers would be jealous of that kind of hot-swap-able plug-and-play shtick.

This post is really just meant to pull together two ideas. First, I'm curious if other people see this trend at their tables, especially if players aren't granted a free spell at advancement. Second, since I talk a lot about the Threadweaving tax, I'm curious if people thing that 2 successes per turn is "good enough" if this is the likely pattern of spell use.

I agree that the tutor initiating the student into the next circle should offer to teach them a spell of that circle which they know. I won't drop the LP costs in my game, but this related to how the metaphysics of magic, spells, and patterns are presented in the world. (I fully realize that those only exposed to the 4E material lack the context of the earlier books and novels).

Here's my summary: The act of inscribing a new spell of your discipline into your grimoire (a personal pattern item) causes a change in _your_ pattern, weaving the pattern of the spell into your own. To make this pattern-magic change permanent requires expending Legend Points. Once this is done, the spell pattern is locked into your own (and this is the reason you can use your body as a RAW magic filter). At this point, you do _not_ need to reference your grimoire in order to cast the spell or to swap it into a spell matrix (weaving a copy of the one you know so well because it is a part of you). Having the grimoire on hand may make it easier if you're a Wizard (this has been greatly highlighted in 4E), but you strictly don't need it to cast once you've spent the LP to lock the spell pattern into yours.

I will have to address the threadweaving tax at another time.