Spliced Weave problems [RESOLVED]

Discussion on playing Earthdawn. Experiences, stories, and questions related to being a player.
User avatar
The Undying
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:25 pm

Spliced Weave problems [RESOLVED]

Post by The Undying » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:22 am

---------- Update, Feb 15 ----------
Looks like this was just an interpretation problem from the preview material.
  • Spliced Weave has an inherent benefit over Threadweaving: Spliced Weave is, in itself, a Simple Action. That means you can Threadweave via Spliced Weave on the same turn as spellcasting (via Spellcasting or Concise Casting).
  • Additional Ranks in Spliced Weave do have value: Rank is the maximum number of threads that can be woven. Therefore, if you want to weave 8 threads, you need at least Spliced Weave 8. Doesn't matter if you can achieve all eight successes on a single Threadweaving test, you still can only use as many (cumulative) successes as you have Ranks in Spliced Weave.
Given the latter element, I don't think there is any problem with Spliced Weave as a Talent (and, honestly, I'm happy with it as an ability). The thread limitation mechanic is very similar to the Item History mechanic, so it isn't that wonky, just a niche situation. Regardless, there is DEFINITELY a reason to improve Spliced Weave, which differentiates it as a Talent over a Knack.

As a result, this thread is pretty much dead (in a completely good way). If you're just stumbling onto this, you won't really find much insight within now that the clarification above is available.
---------- -------------------- ----------

Maybe I'm having a bad day, just seems like I'm pouring all kinds of angst on here.

On the old forum, I'd kicked off a thread talking about The Threadweaving Tax. It basically amounts to how unfortunate it is that magician's primary scaling function - extra threads - requires multiple Standard action, meaning they actually effect combat less frequently than everyone else.

Spliced Weave seems like it addresses it, but it seems to leave a lot lacking.

First, it's Circle 15. Unless there's something else waiting in the wings, only the most epically legendary of legendary magicians will ever see this.

Second, every time I look at it, it seems like a fairly unfulfilling way to end the Discipline. This is a Talent that, as written, really only begs for a couple of Ranks. Master magicians get four extra threads, and spells will have an average base of one thread. That's five total, if you want to spike the ball as hard as you can. A Circle 15 really should be pulling out 2-3 successes on any Threadweaving test shy of Master spells.

If this is the solution we have for the tax, I'd really really rather see this converted to something else, maybe a Circle 15 Karma ability, and something much more interesting as the top-Talent for the magicians. Even better would be if each magician's top Talent were unique (which is I think the current iconic thing at Circle 14). Again, this just seems kind of sad to me: "Congratulations, you are now the pinnacle of Nethermancy; your reward is ... the exact same as every other caster *sad trumbone*"
Last edited by The Undying on Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
The Undying
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:25 pm

Re: Spliced Weave

Post by The Undying » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:16 am

Some extra thoughts:

- The primary benefit for this type of Talent is a theoretical niche: Multi-Discipline spells. These spells require a Threadweaving roll for each Discipline involved in the spell. At least based on the summary given for Spliced Weave, it seems like it could be used to perform the two separate Talent tests in a single turn, and thus far, even with the discussions we as a community have had on the topic, this Talent would be the only way to reduce these tests to a single turn.

- Looking back at the old Player Companions, I don't see how this helps high-level magic at all. A LOT of the Warden/Master tier spells have the caveat "each Thread takes an hour to weave" - obviously, this isn't going to be done in combat, and since an hour is MUCH longer than a turn (10 seconds), being able to perform multiple Threadweaving tests in a single turn helps us not at all.

User avatar
The Undying
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:25 pm

Re: Spliced Weave

Post by The Undying » Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:05 am

Panda was nice enough to provide a reply out-of-band. Here's his text:
Morgan Weeks, from Panda Gaming Grove wrote:Your thesis starts with a Thread Weaving tax, which isn't something that functionally exists anymore due to the prevalence of effective 0 thread spells. Moving from there, the spells that require more than 2 threads are exceptionally powerful in how they can shape the battlefield - effecting a large number of opponents with a powerful effect, or more narrow applications that can effectively remove a target from the conflict. Which is extremely powerful to be able to do with a single action.

Once at 15th Circle, there isn't much pressure to improve it since there isn't anything else, but additional ranks still allow to buy against potential failures, no matter how rare they may be. Since none of the current spellcasters are intended to be combat Disciplines, access to a talent that has so much potential to affect combat specifically is quite late in their progression.
And my reply:
The Undying wrote:Much appreciated. I still can't say I like the Talent at all or the fact that all magicians end their Discipline growth with the same 100% generic Talent. However, I think your reply provides a clear view on your perspective regarding Threadweaving's role as a constraining factor and that you think it's in a healthy place, including the impact of extra threads and the resulting additional Threadweaving requirements. That, honestly, is what I've been craving for. =)

ragbasti
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:09 pm

Re: Spliced Weave

Post by ragbasti » Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:13 pm

The way I see it, Spliced Weave is very powerful and comes late for a reason.

Concise Casting and Spliced Weave basically allow you to cast multiple spells per round.
Getting Concise Casting first enables you to cast 0 Thread spells at first and later on Spliced Weave upgrades this to casting multiple spells that require Threads or casting extra Threads for 0 Thread spells.

Tattered Rags
Posts: 359
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:04 am

Re: Spliced Weave

Post by Tattered Rags » Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:23 pm

ragbasti wrote:The way I see it, Spliced Weave is very powerful and comes late for a reason.

Concise Casting and Spliced Weave basically allow you to cast multiple spells per round.
Getting Concise Casting first enables you to cast 0 Thread spells at first and later on Spliced Weave upgrades this to casting multiple spells that require Threads or casting extra Threads for 0 Thread spells.
Concise Casting only let's you cast an extra 0-thread spell (or 1-thread if in enhanced matrix). It also cannot be used in the same round as Spliced Weave.
Adventure I'm running:
Under the Stars

Adventure GM post-mortem:
Under the Stars Postmortem

User avatar
Mataxes
Posts: 687
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:39 pm
Location: The Great Library
Contact:

Re: Spliced Weave

Post by Mataxes » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:32 am

Tattered Rags wrote:It also cannot be used in the same round as Spliced Weave.
Actually, this has been changed. They can be used the same round.
Josh Harrison - josh@fasagames.com
Earthdawn Line Developer, Forum Admin

Personal Website: www.loremerchant.com

User avatar
The Undying
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:25 pm

Re: Spliced Weave

Post by The Undying » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:00 am

Rags is right on both counts. Per Panda on his gaming grove: "Concise Casting acts as a Spellcasting test as a Simple action after a Spellcasting test." Sadly, that means that you can ONLY use Concise Casting on a turn when you used your Standard Action for a Spellcasting test. Maybe there's Knacks that expand it, but until we see the Companion or get an expanded preview dedicated to the Talent, that's it. It's a bit disappointing - I, for one, feel magicians would feel much more engaged in combat if they could perform a Concise Casting while Threadweaving; that way, they don't feel like they're effectively burning a turn 'charging ze laser'. But, I can also see how this works flavor-wise: the Concise Casting piggy-backs off of the effort of the Spellcasting, which is why it is limited to turns with Spellcasting tests (think of it as using excess astral energy or something) and why is it limited to zero threads (not enough energy to push through a complex spell pattern).

As for the power level of Spliced Weave, again, I don't think it's a "powerful" ability.

Looking at the older Player material, Master-tier spells are basically world-altering type stuff, with many of them having the caveat that each thread takes an hour to weave; that means that these will never be cast in combat. Beyond that, when you look at the math and fudge the nudges very slightly to support the generalization, a Circle 15 magician will basically be achieving 1 success per tier on Threadweaving tests: 1 on Master spells, 2 on Warden, 3 on Journeyman, and 4 on Novice. Especially with the Karma die bump they all receive at Circle 13 which takes them to Step 5, add one extra success to each of those when Karma is used.

The result? If we ignore Master-tier spells based on the premise above, then basically any native 0-thread spell (or a 1-thread spell in an Enhanced/Armored matrix) can usually be fully woven in a single Threadweaving test with all four extra threads available to a Master magician. Ignoring extra threads, almost every spell can be full woven in a single Threadweaving test.

As such, what does Splice Weave buy a magician?
- 1 rank: buys either 100% insurance on those fully spiked (i.e., all extra threads) 0/1 thread spells or ability to weave pretty much any spell, with an extra thread or two, with a good amount of insurance.
- 2 ranks: buys basically 100% insurance on everything.
- 3+ ranks: why would a magician ever waste their time an LP buying more than two ranks?

So, it's really not that "powerful". With the exception of allowing base multi-thread spells to be cast with a ton of extra threads, it basically buys nothing other than insurance. Any even with this exception, since you really only need 1, maybe two, rank, this really REALLY ought to be a Knack rather than a Talent. Moreover, if this is so "powerful," since you only need 1 or two ranks, as a Talent right now, you're only looking at 500 LP for the first rank and 800 for the next. This is comparable to a Rank 4 and Rank 5 Threadweaving Knack. The only problem is that we don't want to make it accessible too early. So, maybe just dump it at a Rank 13 Knack - Master tier with a VERY robust 37,700 LP for this "powerful" ability - allow Threadweaving RANK uses per turn (even though we'll only ever need two) and call it a day. The vast cost change I think more than makes up for the fact that the Adept gets it two Circles early (assuming they want to spend THAT MUCH at that Circle).

User avatar
The Undying
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:25 pm

Re: Spliced Weave

Post by The Undying » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:21 am

Mataxes wrote:
Tattered Rags wrote:It also cannot be used in the same round as Spliced Weave.
Actually, this has been changed. They can be used the same round.
What's the extent of the change? Concise Casting as a Simple Action on ANY turn? Only with Spliced Weave (which I really wouldn't understand the justification for)?

User avatar
Mataxes
Posts: 687
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:39 pm
Location: The Great Library
Contact:

Re: Spliced Weave

Post by Mataxes » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:59 am

The Undying wrote: What's the extent of the change? Concise Casting as a Simple Action on ANY turn? Only with Spliced Weave (which I really wouldn't understand the justification for)?
In the draft talents chapter that went out to Kickstarter backers, the last sentence of Spliced Weave says it can't be used the same round as Concise Casting. That paragraph has been removed.

Beyond that, I need to look at the interactions of these different talents.
Josh Harrison - josh@fasagames.com
Earthdawn Line Developer, Forum Admin

Personal Website: www.loremerchant.com

Tattered Rags
Posts: 359
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:04 am

Re: Spliced Weave

Post by Tattered Rags » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:32 am

Mataxes wrote:
Tattered Rags wrote:It also cannot be used in the same round as Spliced Weave.
Actually, this has been changed. They can be used the same round.
Curses! Foiled again! I'll get you next time, and your rascally panda!
Adventure I'm running:
Under the Stars

Adventure GM post-mortem:
Under the Stars Postmortem

Post Reply