Down Strike and how it might interact with Great Leap and/or splitting movement.

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ChrisDDickey
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Down Strike and how it might interact with Great Leap and/or splitting movement.

Post by ChrisDDickey » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:22 pm

The Down Strike talent specifically says that it can be used while jumping down upon an opponent.
I presume this means that a Sky Raider might simply make a short one yard hop every round and deliver a Down Strike on their way down upon the target in front of them. (taking two strain, one for the Great Leap, and one for the Down Strike), or perhaps more cinematically leap over the target and attack them from the other side.

When doing a down strike, is it considered that the person makes the attack while still in the air, or after he lands? I am specifically wondering about whether Spiting Movement is ever an issue. So if I leap over to a target, is it considered that I arrive and make my Down Strike attack(s)? Or do I have to have declared a Split Movement and make my Down Strike Attacks a yard before landing, and then use the rest of my movement to land upon the hex I was above?

How about if I wish to use Great Leap (with or without Down Strike) to attack a flying creature that is several yards high? Would the correct way to do that to declare a Split Movement, then upon my action make a Great Leap that would bring me over the flying creature, and then to a landing spot beyond the creature, and make all my attacks as split movement attacks while I was up there above it? Or is the Landing part of Leaping just not really considered real "movement" for purposes of splitting movement?

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etherial
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Re: Down Strike and how it might interact with Great Leap and/or splitting movement.

Post by etherial » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:35 pm

FASA Games, on ED4PG140, wrote: The adept takes advantage of higher ground to deliver more devastating close combat attacks. He must be in a stable position at least one yard above his opponent (either mounted or standing on higher ground), or must jump down onto his opponent. If his attack is successful, the adept substitutes his Down Strike Step for his Strength Step on the Damage test.
I'd say it takes more than a one-yard hop to "jump down onto" someone. I'd say your body has to be entirely above theirs, at least at the midpoint of the jump (which is still quite doable with Great Leap, you just need to roll a 4 on the Talent for most Races or a 6 for Trolls and Obsidimen). I wouldn't require Splitting Movement to Melee Weapons a Flying Creature with Great Leap, Downstrike or no - we have plenty examples of people doing stuff on the way down, so I'd agree that "Landing" is a consequence of "Leaping", not part of movement, as long as you don't go any further. I'd only allow one Standard/Simple Action midair, though, so if you wanted to Second/Momentum Attack, Second Weapon, or Swift Kick them, you'd best hope they fail their Knockdown Test.

Jexel
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Re: Down Strike and how it might interact with Great Leap and/or splitting movement.

Post by Jexel » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:10 pm

etherial wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:35 pm

as long as you don't go any further. I'd only allow one Standard/Simple Action midair, though, so if you wanted to Second/Momentum Attack, Second Weapon, or Swift Kick them, you'd best hope they fail their Knockdown Test.
If this is how it works. Downstrike has much cooler flavor but is vastly inferior to Crushing Blow.

ChrisDDickey
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Re: Down Strike and how it might interact with Great Leap and/or splitting movement.

Post by ChrisDDickey » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:09 pm

Jexel wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:10 pm
If this is how it works. Downstrike has much cooler flavor but is vastly inferior to Crushing Blow.
I would agree.
If the strike has to be made "while you are above the target", and not just "after you have been higher than the target", and you only allow one attack to be made mid-leap, then somebody who can just stay on the ground and make several crushing blow attacks has a definite advantage way above not having to spend strain making leaps for no reason other than gaining height.

However I am not 100% certain that is what you are saying.
So in one scenario, we are attempting to attack a flying creature and there is nowhere to land up there. You get to made one attack, but no more while in mid-leap. Are you saying that if you happen to knock them down, they flop down next to where you land and you can make any additional attacks you have upon them? But if they are not knocked down you can't?

And in the scenario where you simply leap over somebody from their north side to their south side, you would allow all attacks to be made, and all to take advantage of the down strike? Regardless of whether you knock them down or not, you land and make all your attacks as down strikes?

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RazanMG
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Re: Down Strike and how it might interact with Great Leap and/or splitting movement.

Post by RazanMG » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:03 pm

First of all only one Great Leap per round. You can only use a talent once per round, unless noted otherwise.

That being said, as I see Great Leap + attack:

When jumping you need all your body to be over the head of the target, if its jump straight up you will land safely if you roll high enough (target 2 yards high flying 5 yards above ground - you need to roll 7), if you roll 6 you still can attack it (no Down Strike) but you will fall from those 6 yards (Great Leap mechanics). All attacks with Down Strike if jump was successful.

Attacking from close combat: all you need to roll for jump is targets height, as you land you make all attacks with Down Strike.

Tables, barrels, gunwales and so on are best terrain features to use for Down Strike without jumping.

Its inferior to Crushing Blow (low and normal ceilings, grab creatures effects, magic effects that wont let you jump), but letting only one attack when jumping down would be too punitive and not fun for players.

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etherial
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Re: Down Strike and how it might interact with Great Leap and/or splitting movement.

Post by etherial » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:58 pm

Jexel wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:10 pm
etherial wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:35 pm

as long as you don't go any further. I'd only allow one Standard/Simple Action midair, though, so if you wanted to Second/Momentum Attack, Second Weapon, or Swift Kick them, you'd best hope they fail their Knockdown Test.
If this is how it works. Downstrike has much cooler flavor but is vastly inferior to Crushing Blow.
See, here I am trying to figure out how this Talent should work based on flavor and I'm perfectly willing for it to be usable only once per round so it's not so bad if you have to Jump or do some crazy nonsense for it to work but of course it also has to be balanced against Crushing Blow, which is available to similar Disciplines at the same Circle. Plus this is a wuxia game, so I should revise my earlier statement:

Use it any time you can convince the GM you have mechanical advantage. Especially against knocked down opponents.
Last edited by etherial on Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Down Strike and how it might interact with Great Leap and/or splitting movement.

Post by Bonhumm » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:24 am

I think the key part here is 'jump down' which is quite different from 'falling down'.

So, the attacker must either be:

a- on a stable platform while, of course, being in melee range.

or

b- be JUMPING DOWN from said STABLE platform, most likely because of range.


All the other examples I've seen so far are NOT from jumping DOWN, they are from jumping UP then FALLING down. This is Earthdawn, not Super Mario.

By jumping down from a platform, the attacker had the ability to time and direct his fall while there would be no way for him to correct his vector once he had begun to jump UP.

ChrisDDickey
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Re: Down Strike and how it might interact with Great Leap and/or splitting movement.

Post by ChrisDDickey » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:51 am

I don't think that Great Leap ever involves "falling down".
One leap safely brings you from a stable stance, up, over, and down to a landing in another stable place to stand.
I don't think the landing is "falling". If you are leaping to a landing, you can make a down strike.

There is a question about if one makes an attack halfway thorough their leap, if that requires split movement, or falling or something else, but the consensus on that has so far been that it does not.

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Re: Down Strike and how it might interact with Great Leap and/or splitting movement.

Post by Slimcreeper » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:34 pm

I am ... not opposed to an Earthdawn-Super Mario mash-up?

Bonhumm
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Re: Down Strike and how it might interact with Great Leap and/or splitting movement.

Post by Bonhumm » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:50 pm

My point was that Great Leap does not qualify for a Down Strike attack as it does not meet both criteria: That is that the attack must START from a point higher than the target (jumping DOWN) and that it must start from a STABLE platform. This is a 'AND' condition, not a 'OR'.

So, doing a Great Leap (assuming from the same ground level as the target) does not qualify since:

- it did not BEGIN from an higher point than the target (Great Leap begun at the same ground level as the target)

and

- even once the attacker is higher than the target (at the apex of the Great Leap), being suspended in midair does not count as 'a stable platform'.


Let's be honest here, I think it's clear that although Great Leap count as a free action it was not meant to be used that way. Free Action or not, you'd have to drop your guard and bend your knees to do that, opening yourself completely to an attack.
Last edited by Bonhumm on Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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