Wind Catcher is a Standard Action?

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Telarus
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Re: Wind Catcher is a Standard Action?

Post by Telarus » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:10 pm

Ah Knacks. I was going to suggest that. Nice!

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The Undying
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Re: Wind Catcher is a Standard Action?

Post by The Undying » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:15 am

Mataxes wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:20 pm
We have plans for a "feather fall" knack for Wind Catcher
It seems like a Featherfall-esque knack would mean that vanilla Wind Catcher is really geared towards "I'm about to consciously decide to jump into the air, so I will use Wind Catcher" versus "Oh no, I seem to be falling, so I will use Wind Catcher if I get a Standard Action before I pancake." Am I over-reading?

Separately, a Featherfall knack for Wind Catcher seems like it directly infringes on what is otherwise a completely unique ability of Gliding Stride. The ability being "I have just started to fall and as a Free Action get to avoid fall damage for X distance." That doesn't seem great as it waters down a separate Talent rather than uniquely enhancing the base Talent. It'd be like "Melee Weapon Knack, 1 Strain: Your fists count as an improvised weapons for the corresponding Attack" would greatly intrude on Unarmed Combat. Am I misinterpreting something, or is this kind of a sneak peak at changes to come for ED4 Knacks, where certain Talents can be Knack'ed to act like lesser versions of other Talents?

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Mataxes
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Re: Wind Catcher is a Standard Action?

Post by Mataxes » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:43 pm

The Undying wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:15 am
It seems like a Featherfall-esque knack would mean that vanilla Wind Catcher is really geared towards "I'm about to consciously decide to jump into the air, so I will use Wind Catcher" versus "Oh no, I seem to be falling, so I will use Wind Catcher if I get a Standard Action before I pancake." Am I over-reading?
No. Getting back to Wind Catcher as a Standard action since it was first created, that seems to be the intent.
Separately, a Featherfall knack for Wind Catcher seems like it directly infringes on what is otherwise a completely unique ability of Gliding Stride. The ability being "I have just started to fall and as a Free Action get to avoid fall damage for X distance." That doesn't seem great as it waters down a separate Talent rather than uniquely enhancing the base Talent. It'd be like "Melee Weapon Knack, 1 Strain: Your fists count as an improvised weapons for the corresponding Attack" would greatly intrude on Unarmed Combat. Am I misinterpreting something, or is this kind of a sneak peak at changes to come for ED4 Knacks, where certain Talents can be Knack'ed to act like lesser versions of other Talents?
While there is a little bit of an overlap, I don't think it causes any problems. IIRC (posting from work so I don't have the book handy to check), Gliding Stride only counters a certain amount of falling damage, and not on the scale possible with Wind Catcher.

It's a trick that makes sense and is likely to have been developed by the people who use the talent (Air Sailors and Sky Raiders). I wouldn't read any more into it than that.
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The Undying
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Re: Wind Catcher is a Standard Action?

Post by The Undying » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:37 pm

Awesome, thanks!

Yeah, the fall mitigation for Gliding Stride is very short. But it's there. Adepts/Players that wanted some form of mitigation would have invested quite a few ranks into it (benefit is determined by rank), plus eating a Talent Option, to receive that meager benefit. Introducing a knack that provides an alternate path, at less cost with more benefit and without a separate Talent, seems Not Good (tm).

Just my opinion, though. Oddly, this actually would have sucked PRETTY HARD if my table were still running ED4. My Elementalist was specifically moving towards Gliding Stride as fall mitigation for Metal Wings, despite also having Wind Catcher. Decent mitigation would've cost a solid 4+ ranks in Gliding Stride. To see a knack come along that would've given me what I bought otherwise, again cheaper and better and without a separate Talent, would have been unfortunate. :)

I think there's room for it, though, if done carefully:
1) Still require a successful Wind Catcher test. That sets it apartment from Gliding Stride, which is guaranteed (no test).
2) Require an extra success. This has been a fairly standard thing in prior edition knacks. No idea if it'll return to ED4. However, it makes a lot of sense here, given that it directly intrudes on some other talent's unique shtick.

These elements would make a Featherfall knack for Wind Catcher useful without making it immeasurably better than Gliding Stride.

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Mataxes
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Re: Wind Catcher is a Standard Action?

Post by Mataxes » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:58 pm

It would still require a test. (Why wouldn't it require a test?)

IIRC, the knack allows using Air Dance as a Simple/Free action (for added strain) instead of a Standard action.

Keep in mind, the purpose of Gliding Stride is not fall damage mitigation, that's a secondary effect. Also, as discussed above, only Elementalist is affected by any potential "overlap" that knack provides.

(Again, posting from work, as my home internet has been down since Monday evening in the wake of a windstorm that took out a lot of trees and power in the region.)
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Re: Wind Catcher is a Standard Action?

Post by The Undying » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:56 pm

Keeping the test requirement makes sense, I agree. Why it might not have required a test is to follow the same template as the existing ability to mitigate fall, which does not require a test.

The fact that falling mitigation is a secondary affect of Gliding Stride doesn't change the fact that it's the only vanilla Talent that provides that capability. For some, the secondary effect is more desirable than the primary. Viagra is the power house drug it is today because of it's side effect (was originally developed as a blood pressure medication, IIRC).

Finally, the fact that Elementalist is the only Discipline affected by the overlap doesn't change the fact that someone is affected. We don't give all but one kid in class a piece of candy while also taking a piece from that one kid, do we? :)

Honestly, I think a core problem is the time lag in the release of the Companion. As I've said, I'm not personally fond of the fact that the knack directly intrudes on another Talent's unique shtick, BUT a new player with access to the Companion could plan based on that knowledge. Without the Companion, changes that erode value propositions by these types of increased overlap can be adversely received. I'm not saying this in an attempt to beat you up, I know you guys are working hard and the lag is what it is, I'm just saying it to make clear how some things could be perceived.

Telarus
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Re: Wind Catcher is a Standard Action?

Post by Telarus » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:06 am

Knacks should not be universally available. i.e. when a player wants a specific one, they will have to hunt around for some-one who knows that Secret and convince them to teach it. Still wouldn't hurt to have both - considering their other specialty uses.

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Re: Wind Catcher is a Standard Action?

Post by Reciprocity » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:25 am

Knack sounds perfect to me. The objective being to wind catcher on to another ship and strike the same round.

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Re: Wind Catcher is a Standard Action?

Post by Mataxes » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:06 pm

The Undying wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:56 pm
Keeping the test requirement makes sense, I agree. Why it might not have required a test is to follow the same template as the existing ability to mitigate fall, which does not require a test.
So... you're saying the Wind Catcher knack might not require a test because a different talent (Gliding Stride) doesn't require a test to mitigate falling damage?

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense to me. The point of the knack is not to duplicate the effects of Gliding Stride. It's to expand the use of Wind Catcher (which already mitigates falling damage) so it can be used as a simple/free action.

part of the reason why I don't understand why you're hung up on this overlap is that they already overlap. As written, the only advantages Gliding Stride has over Wind Catcher when mitigating falling damage are: (1) It can be used as a reaction (simple/free action) and (2) It doesn't require a test.

If you're looking for a talent to serve as a way to reduce the damage from accidental falls into pits, off walls, and other such environmental hazards, gliding stride is a better (as written), because the heights aren't likely to be beyond the talent's limits after you get a couple of ranks in, and Wind Catcher doesn't allow you to avoid "accidental" damage.

I don't agree that expanding the use of Wind Catcher to allow that (1) for extra strain, (2) still requiring a test, and (3) additional Legend Points somehow negates any value for Gliding Stride.
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The Undying
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Re: Wind Catcher is a Standard Action?

Post by The Undying » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:50 pm

As I said, I'm not attempting to argue that the Wind Catcher knack SHOULD NOT require a test. You just asked why I thought it wouldn't require one, I explained why I thought it might not require one. No big issue here. :)
Mataxes wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:06 pm
As written, the only advantages Gliding Stride has over Wind Catcher when mitigating falling damage are: (1) It can be used as a reaction (simple/free action) and (2) It doesn't require a test.
Mataxes wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:06 pm
If you're looking for a talent to serve as a way to reduce the damage from accidental falls into pits, off walls, and other such environmental hazards, gliding stride is a better (as written), because the heights aren't likely to be beyond the talent's limits after you get a couple of ranks in, and Wind Catcher doesn't allow you to avoid "accidental" damage.
I'm sorry that there seems to be confusion, but you hit all of my point exactly on the head here. The line between Wind Catcher and Gliding Stride *for fall mitigation* is ability to use the latter as a free action. The no test is kind of a bonus. This makes it unique in its ability to avoid things like pit traps. So, *in vanilla*, if you want this ability, it's Gliding Stride, period. No Gliding Stride access, no free action fall mitigation. Want free action fall mitigation, get access to Gliding Stride and increase the ranks to sufficient level.

The rest of it is just trying to explain why adding a free action fall mitigation could be "bad." I like class-based systems, I like uniqueness amongst tools. ED feels to me like a class-based system where most tools are unique. Gliding Stride is the free action fall mitigation in vanilla. Allowing Wind Catcher to be free action fall mitigation eliminates that uniqueness. It's not "unhealthy" bad, that's not what I'm saying, it's just bad in the sense that it erodes uniqueness.

Finally, as to "why [I'm] hung up" about it, I tried to explain that. Some people get access to both Talents. Some people would get Gliding Stride for the free action fall mitigation. Eliminating the need to buy Gliding Stride for free action fall mitigation in a later publication is disappointing as a player - a Talent Option was unnecessarily burned, and LP was overspent. I get the impression that you are focused on the fact that Gliding Stride is really meant to to do other stuff (the active use), so sharing the secondary effect shouldn't be a big deal. The point I'm trying to get across is that for some (me), it's the secondary effect that's the target, not the primary, and finding out I could've gotten that effect much more easily due to changes added in later publications is disappointing.

ALL of this is do with it what you will. Some of this comes down to "very few people have access to both." I'm saying that there's value in examining how this impacts those who have access to both. Some of this comes down to "games change over time." I'm saying that there's value in examining how this change could cause disappointment. That's it. :)

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