Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Discussion on playing Earthdawn. Experiences, stories, and questions related to being a player.
Jaracove
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:58 am

Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by Jaracove » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:55 pm

Page 226
"The most common method of obtaining a True Pattern’s Key Knowledges is to obtain and study one or more of its Pattern Items"

Page 229
"By researching the history and activities of a True Pattern, it is possible to obtain its Research Knowledges."

Is there a difference between Key Knowledges and Research Knowledges? I ask because there seems to be two ways of gaining knowledge, using a Pattern Item on page 226 and researching the True Pattern itself on page 229.

User avatar
The Undying
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:25 pm

Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by The Undying » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:35 pm

Search the forum, the minutiae of Key/Test/Research knowledge has been discussed significantly, often in context of Item History. Most anything you could hope for on the topic would be there.

Short answer is yes, there's a difference:

Each rank of a thread item is gated behind a key knowledge, which must be uncovered through Item History. Success on an Item History test unlocks the Key Knowledge by either identifying it is blank (no Test/Research) or by revealing the Test Knowledge (question to be answered and/or deed to be done). Character must then find the Research Knowledge (answer to the question) and/or perform the deed before they can spend LP to achieve that rank (and you can't skip ranks).

Dougansf
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:14 am

Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by Dougansf » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:38 pm

Reread pages 220 - 224, Weaving Threads to Magic Items.

It goes through the acquisition and use of Key Knowledges, which include Test Knowledge (the question) and Research Knowledge (the answer).

Dougansf
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:14 am

Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by Dougansf » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:48 pm

The Undying wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:35 pm
Each rank of a thread item is gated behind a key knowledge, which must be uncovered through Item History.
That part seems to be under debate. A while back, Josh said that was the case. Then LouP came on and said only the Ranks with Key Knowledges specifically called out was the original intent.

This leaves me a little curious about how the rank limitation of Item History works.

User avatar
The Undying
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:25 pm

Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by The Undying » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:56 pm

Observation is true. Personally, it's not ground I want to retread - there's very little to add to the previous conversations that are here on the new forum (not that it feels like you're trying to rehash it). :) Unless The Powers That Be make official errata solidifying one of the two interpretations, seems like there a two pretty standard mechanics for the process. We played the "blank KK don't eat IH successes" and found it really cheapened the process, requiring only a very small investment in IH (3 or 4 ranks) to access pretty much every item available; changing to Mataxes's imagine made the process and Talent feel more substantial for us. However, neither is right or wrong based on the published material (as written).

User avatar
Mataxes
Posts: 669
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:39 pm
Location: The Great Library
Contact:

Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by Mataxes » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:27 am

Honestly, either way works.

I mostly agree with Undying that allowing ranks without an associated Key Knowledge to be skipped by Item History might cheapen the process a little, but I don't think it's game breaking by any stretch. I mean, just because it's a little easier to uncover what you need to learn, that doesn't necessarily make it easier to learn the details, or do anything to change the fact you still need to have Thread Weaving at the appropriate rank to unlock them.
Josh Harrison - josh@fasagames.com
Earthdawn Line Developer, Forum Admin

Personal Website: www.loremerchant.com

Slimcreeper
Posts: 755
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:44 pm

Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by Slimcreeper » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:47 am

Would have saved many a head many a scratching if they'd just named the Test Knowledge the Question or the Mystery or something like that. Then you could call the Research Knowledge the Answer. And just call the Key Knowledge the Knowledge. Or the Key. Or the Lock. Or anything but Key Knowledge, Research Knowledge, and Test Knowledge. There is such a thing as too much knowledge. Sometimes it only creates more questions.

User avatar
The Undying
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:25 pm

Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by The Undying » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:23 am

Were wading further into "rehashing unresolvable stuff," but yeah, the naming is wonky, given "Research Knowledge" kind of implicitly suggests a "Research test," which is by no means required, it's just one avenue. Previous threads talk about this topic, both the Name problem and the "is Research required for the Research Knowledge" thing.

These names have ALWAYS been this way, though, just like the whole "[potential] Recovery test and [rolled to heal] Recovery test." I'd say "this is great stuff to keep in mind for ED5," but for the sake of the brand and system, I think the worst thing that could happen is an ED5 any time Soon (tm). So, "Research" the "Test" for that "Key," all for Triple "Knowledge" A+ Power, man! :D

User avatar
The Undying
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:25 pm

Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by The Undying » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:05 am

Here's the most recent mega-thread on the topic: http://www.fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=273

@Jaracove

It seems to me you asked very similar in the last thread. I'm not mentioning that to berate you, it just suggests to me there's something that's still not click for you. I'm just not entirely sure which chord to strike to maybe hit the right resonance for you.

Ignore all the stuff about True Patterns and Pattern Items - in reality, that's all mechanical fluff. A Key Knowledge has two parts: a Test Knowledge and a Research Knowledge. The Test Knowledge can be one or more questions you must answer and/or one or more deeds you must perform. The Research Knowledge is the answer to all the questions in the Test Knowledge. Once you have successfully performed ALL deeds AND answered all questions listed, you have resolved the Key Knowledge and may pay LP to gain the rank's effect.

How you go about answering ("obtaining the Research Knowledge") the questions ("information required for the Test Knowledge") is entirely up to you and the GM.

Let's assume you ambush a group of bandits, killing one of them and imprisoning the others. You loot the body of the dead bandit and find a Thread Item. It is going to take you a week to escort the living bandits back to town to face judgement, so during the trip, you perform Item History on the sword. While this is totally unrealistic, let's assume the Rank 1 has a Kew Knowledge with a Test Knowledge of "Discover the name of the wife for the last owner of this item." Here are some of the MANY ways you could obtain the Research Knowledge:
1) When you rolled the corpse, it had a letter inside, which begins with "To my dearest wife, Elsa...". BAM, that's it, you're done.
2) You question (in any variety of ways) the living bandits. They tell you he was married to someone named Elsa. BAM, that's it, you're done.
3) The living bandits don't know, but they know the town he called home. It happens to be on your way. You swing through, ask around, and meet Else. BAM, that's it, you're done.
4) After a time, you make it back to Throal, and either you or a paid Acolyte performs a Research test to try to find the wife's name. If successful, BAM, that's it, you're done.

The last point - the most inefficient and least fun, IMHO, but sometimes necessary - is where the whole "True Pattern" stuff comes in. The item, as a Thread Item, has a True Pattern. The last owner, as a Namegiver, has a True Pattern. When you look up information, in any way (Research test, asking around, following clues, etc), using one of these pieces of information, you are mechanically "investigating the True Pattern." It's just a very flavorful, and complicated, way of saying it.

Make sense?

Jaracove
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:58 am

Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by Jaracove » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:36 am

Agreed, if I've asked a similar question there's definitely something not clicking for me. Problem is I'm not that familiar with the game rules from a playing experience; I'm approaching this question from a theory point of view only.

To be honest, after going through the replies I'm still confused on a level that I'm not even sure what questions I need to ask in an attempt at resolving the problem. Key Knowledges, Test Knowledge, Research Knowledge, Ranks etc, I'm afraid it's just beyond my ability to comprehend.

Post Reply