Shield and Forge Armor, why not?

[Lys]

Note that Throal being one third of Barsaive's population is explicitly conjecture rather than fact. If you actually add up the populations of all settlements in published materials, then Barsaive's actual population is approximately 920 00 just in the major urban centers. So that's without all towns, villages, rural dwellings, Troll moots, Scorcher bands, etc; as there are no easy means of approximating their populations. A back of the envelope estimate using Throal's ratio of main to outlying settlements suggests a minimum of 1 million people for Barsaive as a whole, but it could be higher. So Barsaive is likely to have twice as many Adepts as Metaxes was estimating.

It's still not much, granted, and i definitely agree that Forge bonuses above +10 are going to be vanishingly rare. The thing is, if your party are all 12th Circle Adepts, then they are precisely the kinds of people who have access to vanishingly rare things. At those heights you are legendary people in your own right. Therefore, while it turns out it's not official, i still think that it's a good guideline for players to be able keep their weapons and armour Forged at around their highest circle. At least through Warden-rank, though it should require increasingly more time and services to secure their services. Though once you start seeking out Master Weaponsmiths, it should definitely be an adventure in its own right to get one to agree to Forge your stuff.

[The Undying]

Honestly, head count doesn't matter too much. The point this thread has gotten to is Weaponsmith density. Ultimately, it comes down to individual GM preferences. However, if you use the info Mataxes helpfully provided in his blog, you're talking 5% Adept population, which means ~0.5% Weaponsmith pop. 500k Namegivers in Barsaive? 2,500 Weaponsmiths total. Want to double the pop to 1m? 5,000 Weaponsmiths total. Want to double Adept pop to 10%, then 5,000 Weaponsmiths in a pop of 500k and 10,000 in a pop of 1m.

That's all noise. It really comes down to diminishing access to higher Circles. If you assume that Circle density follows the Fibonacci sequence (since it's kind of the heart of the system), then 85% of the total Weaponsmith population are Novice tier. Only 12% are Journeyman. Remember, we're talking total Weaponsmiths - I'd expect a reasonable number are actually adventuring, not playing at being merchants, so the actual head count goes down further yet. Fill in whatever number you like, but those numbers realistically mean that Novice (Forge bonus 1-4) are reasonable accessible, Journeyman (Forge bonus 5-8) is significantly rare, Warden (Forge bonus 9-12) is in the realm of fairy tales, while Master is nie on impossible.

At the end of the day, your table should draw the lanes of accessibility where you like. I think the point, though, is that lanes of accessibility should be drawn, which is kind of the guidance missing from the published material. Mataxes has provided some helpful suggestions in one of his last messages. My current messages provides some insight on breaking it down by tier. If anyone cares about my specific recommendations, there'd be:

• Rank 1-3 in towns
• 4-6 in cities
• 7-8 in private organizations that require measurable effort to join and maintain
• 9-10 require the highest level of organizational access reasonably imaginable (e.g., being awarded access to the Throalic king's guard personal Weaponsmith armoror)
• 11-12 is a mini arc in its own right as you'd have to find the Weaponsmith and then do some significant favors for him/her
• 13+ probably wouldn't exist without a PC Weaponsmith or as a one-time vanishing reward (in that they're not getting it renewed) of significant interaction with a legendary PC as part of a major story arc

Since very few games ever actually reach High Circle, it effectively means that Forge accessibility stops at 6. Even then, though, need to control how much free money players get to prevent Novice Adepts from getting Journeyman-level bonuses.

Want to control it further? I'd personally recommend Rank 1-2 in towns, 3-4 in cities via public access vendors, and 5-6 one-time access as story rewards (meaning they have to do favors every time they want to Forge above 4 - easy enough to do, but requires more than just money). And that's access - they still gotta pay.

[Lys]

Well total population is important for the extremely high Circles, since if it's not high enough, there might not even be any Master level Weaponsmiths at all. Total numbers can also matter when they're low, since the more there are in absolute terms, the higher your chances that one of them could be persuaded to help through word or deed. That said yes, i did let population numbers distract me from the primary issue, which is indeed density. Local density is the primary determinant on how difficult it will be to secure a Weaponsmith's services.

Having established that, though i'm inclined to think the vast majority of Adepts tend to make it past the first few Circles. It's pretty much impossible not to if you're doing anything at all, and if the kind of person who doesn't make use of their Discipline is the kind of person who fails to become an Adept in the first place. Therefore it stands to reason that the main impediments to advancement at lower Circles are permanent crippling injury and death. Barring those, the vast majority of Adepts make it eventually. So to me the notion that 85% of all Adepts are Novices strikes me as a little ridiculous. The percentages i'd expect are more like: 50% Novice, 40% Journeyman, 9.5% Warden, 0.5% Master.

Oh! Also, it's important to remember that ranks in Forge Weapon/Armour are what determines the limit on the bonus. It's probably not uncommon to find Circle 1 Weaponsmiths with Rank 3 Forge Weapon, or Circle 5 Weaponsmith with Rank 6 or 7 Forge Weapon and Armour. There's also bonuses from Pattern Items, Group Threads, and Thread Items to consider. Though those things are more likely to come into play if the Weaponsmith is a PC.

[Calamrin]

There is a consensus in this thread though, and please correct me if im wrong,that by about forged 5-6, that you cant walk into your local swords are us, where your personal smith will bash out your sword.

Also it gets much more difficult after that... requiring roleplaying, missions, seeking favours etc... that in itself brings difficulties in renewing forges (which i think is good)

Im thinking back to Reciprocitys gm capping forges at +5 due to caster/melee balance.

If he/her read this thread and realised the rarity of such weapons it may soften their view.

If you have a smith in your group...thats one lucky party...too right they should be able to forge all the partys items to their maximum lvl.

to keep up to the partys alone combined with adventuring, training, putting stats and skills up is a full time job.

its not like theres thousands of +6 and over weapons/armour floating about....higher circle weaponsmiths are like gold dust, with high demand and overall low production.

[Lys]

Well, in my game we haven't had any trouble finding Weaponsmiths with Forge ranks in the 7-8 range. Like the last time i got my stuff forged it i asked the ST what were the highest Circle Weaponsmith available, and he said there was a 7th Circle one and an 8th Circle one. Got my stuff forged right then and there with no fuss. Granted this was in Claw Ridge which is a medium sized city, and also we had just finished tearing out a tangled web of corruption in the city's law enforcement, which lead back to a Horror cult that had infiltrated the Zarass Icethought's Chargers and their allies in the city. That last part pretty much makes us local heroes, so it makes sense we wouldn't have much difficulty finding service. However no real connection was drawn between the two in or out of character, so i think my GM's opinion is that Weaponsmiths up to Circle 8 are easily found in major cities.

[Calamrin]

Yep Lys, every GM has their own interpretation, view on the world...in fact every world is as the GM makes his/hers.

You also did great deeds for the city...why wouldnt the local heros get access to the best smiths in the city.

Everythings down to interpretation by the GM at the end of the day.

With the rough density figures mataxes linked ...even altering them, its likely they the best 2 smiths in the city, making about 20 weapons and 20 suits of armour a year ....not just making for circle 7-8 adepts, but for anyone who has the cash to buy them.

Also not for just putting them up to maximum rank...some respected clients will be wanting lower forged items improved.

Does a noblemans son whos not an adept not get his +8 sword for his 18th birthday as daddys prepared to pay?

I guess what im saying is the demand far outstrips availability....you have said keeping it available to circle level is how you play it, and who am i to say
how your game world works...seems fine to me.

Im just saying looking at the blog provided by Mataxes, and his comments as well as Undyings, and my GMs im leaning towards their being availability issues on buying highly forged gear.....it gets harder to aquire and maintain....unless you are lucky enough to have a weaponsmith in your group (this thread has got me wanting to play one in the future!)

Again it totally depends on the GMs view, im just using the general information ive gained from the thread to form an opinion.

[Reciprocity]

I want to thank everyone for their answers! The background and evolution on the different editions was just outstanding.

Since I dredged up this topic I think I should say that your relies have helped. They have at least helped me understand the where and why our GM sets his "campaign" limits.

I may not have convinced him, but he is willing to "tweak". For example his thread items start like 3rd Edition.. fully forged. He is finding it hard to wrap his head around maybe not having that as the first "step" in the threads. (I'm guessing they are third ED items modified and/or imported)

WE are in "discussion" about armor defeating hits... though he has admitted there is an issue.

Up till our last adventure - he had said we were hitting above our weight class. On our last one, our opponents; almost every round had better initiative. They were also more numerous and about half were getting blindsided bonus from attacks from behind. It was a chaotic melee with our opponents appearing amongst and around us. I need to point out they were half man size spiders with one troll size spider.

There were 3 or four armor defeating hits made by the spiders.

It should have been a party wipe. The spiders had poison attacks. I'm fairly sure the GM "decided" to forgo the poison affects because this was suppose to be "just a warm up fight".... he has admitted so privately while we were discussing armor defeating hits.

All that said: I'm going to solve his problem for him. I will most likely make 5th circle shortly and pick up Forge Armor. The group will "most likely" allow me to forge everything to 5th (burn the time required)... Then I'm going to step away from the forge and pick up a complimentary fighting discipline and take it to 5 or 6th circle.

Group currently is circle 4. I am and have been selecting talents that will allow me an express run at rapid circle advancement. Once I find a master - and get first circle - it will take very few LP to make third, and be pushing 4th. (yes I'm a min/maxer and/or power gamer - always have been) I didn't make the mistake of dumping stats... the stat step optimum break points were fascinating to me. (imo, best RPG rules I have come across)Makes for interesting build possibilities. I don't usually run a "support" character so I'll again solve my issue with imposed limits and give my GM another headache (probably).

Bottom line. I'm having fun. It's a great group and we all are friends through work, hobbies etc - before we started gaming. Our game secessions are more like pot luck dinner parties. Not just pizza and hanging out in someone's dorm room...

This forum crowd also seems to be supportive. Unlike some others that will not be mentioned.

Edit: I have not given up on weaponsmith. I'm just giving time for an earlier edition GM to adjust to 4ED rules. Running his first 4ED campaign with a group brand new to Earthdawn.

[Dougansf]

WE are in "discussion" about armor defeating hits... though he has admitted there is an issue.

When you're done with that you can start talking about the Pass/Fail that is active defenses.

[Calamrin]

Reciprocity, keep asking questions when you or your group has them so i dont look such an idiot!)

Thai green curry tomorrows session...i host dont travel so cook to make up for it, they bring their own beer!

Boo hiss you say you a min maxer!...im joking, its just not the way i play...im glad u having fun with earthdawn)

Edit: you could actually persuade your GM to look at these boards!

[CPFCPF]

I'm still limiting that because of the ridiculousness a dagger with a +20 (15 talent and +5 for a group pattern , eventually more from other items) forging would be for us. And there shoould be a reason to wield heavy weapons such as two handed swords. If a dagger comes with damage step 22 and the two handed sword is maxed at 28, that feels odd.

You can't use Group Patterns to directly improve your damage, and as a practical matter you're unlikely to ever see weapons forged all the way to 15. Most like upper end of non-Thread weapons is around +10, or Step 12 vs 18 for dagger vs two-handed sword, which is not so bad. That said, it is true that the difference in weapon damage becomes less meaningful the larger the Forging bonuses become. However the flip side on this is that the vast majority of game time is spent at lower circles, a flat +5 to all weapons and armour still leaves some meaningful variation.

You got that wrong, the +5 from Group pattern is not directly dedicated to damage, it is dedicated to Forge Armor and thus, the talent rank is 15 plus 5 from the weaponsmith Group pattern, resulting in a possible +20 damage on any weapon.
--> Just for the record