Initiative talk

Discussion on playing Earthdawn. Experiences, stories, and questions related to being a player.
Slimcreeper
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Joined:Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:44 pm
Initiative talk

Post by Slimcreeper » Tue May 30, 2017 11:04 pm

On the perennial subject of speeding up combat:

All PCs take the step for initiative. Should a character have a Talent that modifies initiative, he or she has the option of rolling initiative or just modifying his or her initiative. NPCs roll their initiative every time. Groups of NPCs that have the same initiative only roll once for the group.

Discuss! (I haven't tested this, you won't hurt my feelings. I've been listening to D&D and Shadowrun podcasts, where there are fewer initiative checks per combat)

PiXeL01
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Joined:Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:53 pm

Re: Initiative talk

Post by PiXeL01 » Tue May 30, 2017 11:36 pm

I cannot see why you would not roll as a player. Each dice you use has the potential to explode, making you go faster than your enemies.

If anything NPCs should simply take their step and be done with it.
When I run a game all my NPCs use the same roll simply to speed things up.
...
The Shadowrun ini system is unbalanced in its own way. You get to act for each segment of ten you roll, so if you roll 32 you act on 32, 22, 12 and 2.
In the first two editions the character with the highest score could potentially get to act multiple times before any others did and therefore ending the combat singlehandedly before the magician even got a spell off.
(Example: Street Sam w/43 & a shaman w/ 8. The SS would act four times on 43, 33, 23, 13 before the shaman could even blink.)
In 3rd & 5th each player got an action in sequence. Then 10 was subtracted and anyone with ini left acted again. Rinse and repeat until all parties involved had no initiative left.

Shadowrun favors the quick a lot more than any other system I know.
As it is I'm ok with the way Earthdawn handles it.

Slimcreeper
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Joined:Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:44 pm

Re: Initiative talk

Post by Slimcreeper » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:58 am

Weeell, each die also has the potential to come up as a 1. And the only ones who would have the option to roll would be the ones with talents that modify initiative. And for most purposes, getting 1 better than your opponent's initiative is just as good as getting 10 better. And I don't think players would mind going in the same order pretty much every time. They pretty much do anyway.

The Shadowrun initiative system seems punishingly complex to me - really the whole system does, to be honest.

PiXeL01
Posts:111
Joined:Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:53 pm

Re: Initiative talk

Post by PiXeL01 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:50 am

It hasn't become easier nor more streamlined as it went through the editions. Basically there are three rulesets to remember, one more complex than the next.

Also the amount of rolling going on ...

Mogre
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Joined:Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Initiative talk

Post by Mogre » Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:43 pm

Personally, I didn't see initiative causing combat to last that much longer. I kind of like the nostalgia aspect of rolling every round.

Lys
Posts:177
Joined:Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:00 am

Re: Initiative talk

Post by Lys » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:25 pm

Way my group does it is that you roll your straight Initiative, or any applicable Talents that substitute for Initiative (Air Dance, Cobra Strike). Then you add any bonuses and penalties from equipment or Talents (Tiger Spring) to the roll result. This gives you a nice combination of explodiness so you can take advantage of the Air Dance/Cobra Strike bonuses, as well as the reliability of never having low single digit Initiative results. For NPCs, generally special characters get their own initiative roll, while mooks have a single roll that applies to all of them.

utsukushi
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Re: Initiative talk

Post by utsukushi » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:58 am

I'm in some games that, to speed things up, everyone just makes one Initiative roll at the beginning of combat, and that's their Initiative for the whole battle.

This drives me crazy, and I'm afraid the suggestion of everyone just taking Step is... slightly better, since you still roll for NPCs, but if you're still rolling for NPCs every round, how much time are you actually saving?

The problem I see is that a remarkable number of Talents and Combat Options in Earthdawn actually use Initiative as part of their mechanics. Just knowing if you're going to go before your enemy next turn can make a huge tactical difference in when to use what. If you use things like Anticipate Blow and Swift Kick, being reliably first can make you astonishingly overpowered, while being stuck behind an opponent cripples you for the entire battle.

Your suggestion is likely to leave things uncertain for PCs who happen to have about the same Initiative Step as their enemies, since presumably they will sometimes roll a little higher and sometimes a little lower; but you're taking out the variability on the PC side entirely. If their step is lower than the NPCs, they're rarely going to get to go first, and if they're just a few Steps higher, they can pretty well count on it.

I can understand the frustration with rolling every round, especially if you follow all the, "Declare Actions. Roll Initiative. Now start parsing actions," format properly. But I find that's the place to make the trade-off. Dropping the Declare Actions phase and just letting people act as their Initiative comes up does lose the penalty for changing actions as the situation changes almost completely, but it saves quite a bit of time compared to the proper format, and that's a fairly small loss. Eliminating variable Initiative... I've just found that that has a massive impact in Earthdawn. Much more than most games, and probably more than you're expecting.

Dougansf
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Re: Initiative talk

Post by Dougansf » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:29 pm

utsukushi wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:58 am
I can understand the frustration with rolling every round, especially if you follow all the, "Declare Actions. Roll Initiative. Now start parsing actions," format properly. But I find that's the place to make the trade-off. Dropping the Declare Actions phase and just letting people act as their Initiative comes up does lose the penalty for changing actions as the situation changes almost completely, but it saves quite a bit of time compared to the proper format, and that's a fairly small loss. Eliminating variable Initiative... I've just found that that has a massive impact in Earthdawn. Much more than most games, and probably more than you're expecting.
I totally agree with this. We've never used the proper Declare Actions phase. We've recently changed it to Declare Stances, to account for Aggressive Attack or Defensive Stance mostly, since they effect Defenses for the entire round. Without it, people going last would always Aggressive Attack with no penalty.

PiXeL01
Posts:111
Joined:Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:53 pm

Re: Initiative talk

Post by PiXeL01 » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:59 pm

That is how we run the game as well. I think we had proper format for maybe two sessions until everyone was clear on the rules then changed to declare stance then roll initiative. Works pretty well for us. Some of the players, especially the casters roll their Thread weaving etc during other people's turn simply to keep the ball running at a steady pace.

Lys
Posts:177
Joined:Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:00 am

Re: Initiative talk

Post by Lys » Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:02 pm

Yeah that is also what my group does, for the same reasons. Everyone rolls initiative, then actions are declared and enacted in order of initiative. It just so much faster and easier that way. Losing the penalty for changing actions is a small loss, and i would argue it improves the game since it removes some of the frustration spellcasters feel in always going last. The one thing that justifies a Declare Actions phase is the Aggressive and Defensive Stances. Those can simply be declared while initiative is rolled. Like, "My initiative is 17, and I'm being Aggressive this round." Keeps it quick and easy.

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