Group Pattern Specifics

[ZorValachan]

My group is talking about making a Group Pattern. And because this is our first 4e group (we've played both 1e and 2e), I have a question that might have an obvious answer, but it still confusing to me

pg 230 talks about threads raising abilities specifically to a person or place:
"he attaches the thread to one of the
following abilities:
• Any one Talent
• Physical Defense
• Mystic Defense
• Social Defense
• Wound Threshold
• Mystic Armor
• Durability Rating"
Everything in this section refers to abilities.

But under Group Patterns on pages 233-238 there is nothing about about "abilities. Specifically, "talents and characteristics" are mentioned.
"Each thread can be attached to a different talent or characteristic, and otherwise works the same way as other threads woven to pattern items."
The "otherwise" is confusing, because it seems to me to remove "talent or characteristic" from what is the "same way"

talent is obvious. it is one of the aforementioned "abilities" but "characteristic" is never defined. It's a little strange if the list from 230 was meant to be used here as "abilities" could be used, but "talent or characteristic" is only 1 of those abilities and characteristics refer to a completely different list of things starting on page 62 that include: Initiative, Defense Ratings, Carrying Capacity, Uncon. Rating, Death Rating, Wound Threshold, Recovery tests, Mystic Armor Rating, Movement Rate, and Karma. Basically, all the things derived from attributes.

While some are in both lists, others are added or excluded. The difference between raising durability +1, which increases both unc. and dth ratings by 1 point, while as a characteristic, only 1 of them would increase. Also, increasing Carrying Capacity, the number of recovery tests, movement rate, and karma is not on the ability list.

Just confused if "characteristics" for Group patterns is supposed to be actual characteristics or if it was supposed to mean abilities from the pg 230 list?

thanks

[Bonhumm]

I don't think 'characteristic' is a game-mechanic defined term in Earthdawn.

My guess is that its only used as a generic term. I would personally ignore any confusion that page 238 might bring to the situation and only focus on the important part which is the list at page 230:

Thus, to answer your question about Durability: increasing it would increase the Rank of Durability (i.e. exactly as if you had gained a Circle) and, thus, it would increase both your Unconscious and Death rating.

Also: Those forums are not as active as they used to be, most of the Earthdawn fan based moved to the official FASA Discord server. I will send you an invite to it through Private Message (I don't want to put it here to prevent spammers from joining. The link should be good for 7 days. If it expires before you see it, just sent me a private message in this forum and I'll send you another.

[ZorValachan]

I don't think 'characteristic' is a game-mechanic defined term in Earthdawn.

My guess is that its only used as a generic term. I would personally ignore any confusion that page 238 might bring to the situation and only focus on the important part which is the list at page 230:

Thus, to answer your question about Durability: increasing it would increase the Rank of Durability (i.e. exactly as if you had gained a Circle) and, thus, it would increase both your Unconscious and Death rating.

Also: Those forums are not as active as they used to be, most of the Earthdawn fan based moved to the official FASA Discord server. I will send you an invite to it through Private Message (I don't want to put it here to prevent spammers from joining. The link should be good for 7 days. If it expires before you see it, just sent me a private message in this forum and I'll send you another.

Thanks, I'll check out the Discord.

I wish the terminology was consistent. Durability "Rating" seems like it might mean an increase in the Durability Value (3, 5, 7) and not the "Rank," which in 4e appears to be an option, not standard.

[etherial]

I don't think 'characteristic' is a game-mechanic defined term in Earthdawn.

Characteristics are the ratings derived from Attribute Values, as seen on ED4PG63.

[ZorValachan]

I don't think 'characteristic' is a game-mechanic defined term in Earthdawn.

Characteristics are the ratings derived from Attribute Values, as seen on ED4PG63.

Exactly, and why i was confused because the listed characteristics are not all the same as the things on the the abilities list in of 230. The consensus seems to be characteristics is wrong and group pattern threads should be based on the abilities list, not the characteristics starting on pg 62/63.

[ragbasti]

I think you are over-reading the rules and are trying to find fault where there isn't really any.
The list given in the group thread section essentially says any one talent, or any of these characteristics.
Everything except for talent or durability are characteristic increases. It never states that all characteristics can be increased.

[ChrisDDickey]

I wish the terminology was consistent. Durability "Rating" seems like it might mean an increase in the Durability Value (3, 5, 7) and not the "Rank," which in 4e appears to be an option, not standard.

Its a cut and paste error.
In making 4th Ed, they totally changed how durability worked from previous editions. But while they rewrote the core durability mechanic, they just cut and pasted a lot of the rules that peripherally mention durability without changing the wording at all. It all eventually got covered in the errata.

[Mataxes]

"Totally" is a bit much.

The biggest change is being tied to Circle instead of being an independent talent that can be raised. It still adds to Death and Unconsciousness ratings, and the way threads work to boost it is still the same. It acts like Free Talents, where there's an effective "Rank = Circle" in play.