Some ideas about Thread Item crafting

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Fusilliban
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Some ideas about Thread Item crafting

Post by Fusilliban » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:20 am

Hi folks, I've been trying to come up with some rules/guidelines/etc to make TI crafting a sustainable thing, that improves the game and makes it more fun, without totally distorting everything.

What I've got so far is two sets of rules, cobbled together from conversations, and from existing published Thread Items.

For combined bonuses from all of a character's Thread Items:
  • The maximum bonus to any single
    • Defense Rating
    • Talent
    • test type
    • Movement Rate in hexes
    • other characteristic
    a character can receive from their overall thread items is capped at their Thread Weaving Rank.
  • The maximum bonus to any single Attribute value is further capped at +6 (or Thread Weaving Rank, whichever is lower).
  • Reminder: No thread item can ever boost your actual Rank in Thread Weaving. No wishing for more wishes. :)

For individual items being crafted, some guidelines to make them be at least a little bit in step with existing/published items:
  • No more than half the Ranks of an item can be used for the same bonus. No Journeyman items that give +6 to Inspire Others. :) For things which are only possible at higher thread Ranks, no more than half the eligible Ranks can be used for that sort of bonus.
  • Maximum of one Attribute boost per item.
  • Maximum of one bonus Recovery Test per item.
  • If a Talent is only available to characters who are at least Warden tier, bonuses to it can only appear at Rank 7+ of items. If only at Master tier, bonuses can only appear at Rank 9+ of items. If a Talent is only available at Master tier and is only available to a single Discipline, we consider that an exclusive special capstone power, and no TI will give out Ranks of that ability.
The per-crafted-item list is designed based on impressions I've gotten from items in the GMG and Companion.
Last edited by Fusilliban on Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Fusilliban
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Joined:Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:45 am

Re: Some ideas about Thread Item crafting

Post by Fusilliban » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:37 am

To be clear - this is preliminary and not yet set in stone; I wanted to open it to public comment first.

It's entirely likely these rules are too restrictive, or not restrictive enough. It's also possible that it's both. :)

ChrisDDickey
Posts:1011
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Re: Some ideas about Thread Item crafting

Post by ChrisDDickey » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:45 am

Looks good to me. At least for the tiers that we have already played and with mostly random item powers.
With designed items entering play and bearing in mind that it is in players natures to push the limits I am not so sure about the total multi-item bonus limits.

In my opinion, the ability to design items should be to allow the designer to pick the powers they want. Not the ability to push their specifically chosen powers to unreasonable heights. I think that maxing out abilities at about 3 or 4 is about right for Novice tier. 5 or 6 for Journeyman tier. 8 or 9 for Warden Teir, and 10 or 12 for Master tier.

Just to make sure I understand the implications...
Champion Challenge is a Talent that is available to Swordmasters at Warden, and several others at Master.
A Master Tier thread item could be designed to give a +2 to Champion Challenge at 7, and another +2 at rank 9, and it could give bonus to some talent that is available to somebody at journeyman tier at ranks 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10 of +1, +1, +1, +2, and +2. And this could be made for somebody who was not a Swordsman, or even somebody who never has access to Champion Challenge. Correct?
I am not saying this is wrong or should not be allowed, I just want to find the outside edge of the envelope before somebody tries to push it! Because when designed items become a thing, it will get pushed. Hard.

I don't have any experience in Warden or Master tier play, but I can't help but thinking that allowing even a 15th circle master a plus 15 from his collection of thread items seems too much. It seems to me like even for a 15th circle master, having it top out at +10 or +12 seems like more than adequate. Maybe even generous.
I might have gone with something more like placing the max of all items at +3 per tier. So 3 at Novice, 6 at Journeyman, 9 at Warden, and 12 at Master.
Or at 2 plus 2 per tier which would max out at 10 for master.

Taking Thane as an example of somebody who got powers mostly at random, the powers are spread out all over the place. He is just about to raise to Warden. So lets count him as an upper end Journeyman, or beginning Warden.

His highest bonus is +1 to Init, plus three more when I spend one strain. So +4 when I spend one strain.
I have one or two things where I just have a flat +3, and some more things where I get a plus 3 when I spend a strain. So he has one thing where he is half his proposed (TW rank) maximum (when he spends a strain to bring it up to 4), and a few things were he rounds to 1/3 of the proposed maximum.

Extending that, assuming powers continue at 80% random, and that I continue to request some powers that are not an attempt to max out one or two things, I would expect that went entering Master tier, I would have one or two things at +6 or maybe even +8, if some +3 for one strain powers happen to stack.
Contrast that with if Thane could design his own TI for a realistic price (which I think I might be able to do mind you). He will have maxed out his movement rate and his melee talent. and probably pushed several other specifically chosen abilities to annoyingly high limits.

In my opinion, the ability to design items should be to allow the designer to pick the powers they want. Not the ability to push their specifically chosen powers to unreasonable heights. I think that maxing out abilities at about 3 or 4 is about right for Novice tier. 5 or 6 for Journeyman tier. 8 or 9 for Warden Teir, and 10 or 12 for Master tier. And I would probably go with the lower of those numbers.

Fusilliban
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Re: Some ideas about Thread Item crafting

Post by Fusilliban » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:14 pm

ChrisDDickey wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:45 am
Champion Challenge is a Talent that is available to Swordmasters at Warden, and several others at Master.
A Master Tier thread item could be designed to give a +2 to Champion Challenge at 7, and another +2 at rank 9, and it could give bonus to some talent that is available to somebody at journeyman tier at ranks 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10 of +1, +1, +1, +2, and +2. And this could be made for somebody who was not a Swordsman, or even somebody who never has access to Champion Challenge. Correct?
That's basically right. I go back and forth on this. Are people who play (for example) Swordmasters going to feel like their unique thing was stolen if someone else has it in a TI? One thing I thought of was making unique talents only available one tier up - so Champion Challenge would only be available at 9/10 and Blood of Death's Sea would never be available at all - but I'm not sure.

Do players have preferences?
ChrisDDickey wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:45 am
I don't have any experience in Warden or Master tier play, but I can't help but thinking that allowing even a 15th circle master a plus 15 from his collection of thread items seems too much. It seems to me like even for a 15th circle master, having it top out at +10 or +12 seems like more than adequate. Maybe even generous.
Generally I don't want to design a system around the upper levels. Most characters won't make it there. Attrition - players moving on to other things, games ending, character death - means most games end before Circle 15 or level 20 or what have you. Also, I dunno, at 15th Circle if you can't do truly unreasonable stuff, when CAN you?
ChrisDDickey wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:45 am
In my opinion, the ability to design items should be to allow the designer to pick the powers they want. Not the ability to push their specifically chosen powers to unreasonable heights. I think that maxing out abilities at about 3 or 4 is about right for Novice tier. 5 or 6 for Journeyman tier. 8 or 9 for Warden Teir, and 10 or 12 for Master tier. And I would probably go with the lower of those numbers.
Hm.

One of the things I'm trying to keep in mind here is that ED4 is calibrated for players to have Group True Patterns, which means +5 to 5 different stats of the player's choice. Also options involving tying threads to a friend's pattern items, and dropping a couple Blood Promises to boost their favorites some more, etc. Taking all of those, does it really seem unreasonable for a 15th circle caster to have +15 Spellcasting and +15 Thread Weaving?

This is not a rhetorical question - I've never played at that level either and I don't entirely know what's going to work well and create a game that's fun and sustainable. But these are some ideas.

ChrisDDickey
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Re: Some ideas about Thread Item crafting

Post by ChrisDDickey » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:31 pm

Excellent points. I had not been thinking about group patters or blood promises.

Fusilliban
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Joined:Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:45 am

Re: Some ideas about Thread Item crafting

Post by Fusilliban » Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:54 am

Here's a list of Talents that strike me as uniqueish, based on ottdmk's list, and possibly subject to some kind of "one tier higher to get this exclusive schtick" type rule. Note that this does not include talent lists for disciplines which are only on Panda's site.
ottdmk wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:43 pm
Bank Shot
Discipline: Archer(6)

Bardic Voice
Discipline: Troubadour(9)
Option: Illusionist(M), Swordmaster(M)

Beguiling Blade
Discipline: Thief(12)

Blind Fire
Discipline: Archer(9)

Blood Insight
Discipline: Nethermancer(10)

Blood of Death's Sea
Discipline: Sky Raider(15)

Charge
Discipline: Cavalryman(1)

Claw Frenzy
Discipline: Beastmaster(8)

Claw Shape
Discipline: Beastmaster(1)

Command Nightflyer
Option: Nethermancer(N)

Concentrated Assault
Discipline: Air Sailor(15)

Craftsman
Free: Weaponsmith

Double Charge
Discipline: Cavalryman(8)

Dream Thief
Discipline: Thief(15)

Elemental Hold
Discipline: Elementalist(4)

Elemental Mastery
Discipline: Elementalist(10)

Elemental Tongues
Discipline: Elementalist(3)

Emotion Song
Discipline: Troubadour(1)

Entertainer
Free: Troubadour

Enthralling Visions
Discipline: Illusionist(13)

Escape Plan
Option: Thief(W)

Fearsome Charge
Option: Cavalryman(J)

Flame Arrow
Discipline: Archer(7)

Forge Armor
Discipline: Weaponsmith(6)

Forge Flesh
Discipline: Weaponsmith(12)

Forge Weapon
Discipline: Weaponsmith(1)

Glyph of Attunement
Discipline: Wizard(13)

Glyph of Reversal
Discipline: Wizard(14)

Glyph of Shielding
Discipline: Wizard(11)

Glyph of Unweaving
Discipline: Wizard(10)

Howl
Discipline: Beastmaster(13)

Influence Missile
Discipline: Archer(13)

Infuse Memory
Discipline: Illusionist(10)

Living Weapon
Discipline: Weaponsmith(11)

Long Shot
Discipline: Archer(4)

Missile Lock
Discipline: Archer(12)

Mount Attack
Option: Cavalryman(J)

Multi-Charge
Discipline: Cavalryman(15)

Multi-Shot
Discipline: Archer(15)

Mystic Aim
Discipline: Archer(1)

Nethersoul
Discipline: Nethermancer(14)

Netherwalk
Discipline: Nethermancer(11)
Option: Scout(M), Thief(M)

Picking Pockets
Discipline: Thief(1)

Riposte
Discipline: Swordmaster(3)

Second Shot
Discipline: Archer(8)
Option: Scout(M)

Shock Treatment
Option: Elementalist(M)

Snapshot
Discipline: Archer(14)

Snatch Talent
Discipline: Thief(14)

Song of Deflection
Discipline: Troubadour(14)

Spirit Hold
Discipline: Nethermancer(4)

Spirit Talk
Discipline: Nethermancer(3)

Stopping Aim
Option: Archer(J)

Sure Mount
Option: Cavalryman(N)

Thunderous Resolve
Discipline: Elementalist(9)

Trick Riding
Discipline: Cavalryman(1)

True Shot
Discipline: Archer(1)

Truth Through Lies
Discipline: Illusionist(11)

Venom
Discipline: Beastmaster(15)
Option: Archer(M)

Wheeling Attack
Discipline: Cavalryman(6):

Wheeling Defense
Discipline: Cavalryman(7)

World Pulse
Discipline: Scout(15)
It's possible that Perfect Focus might belong on that list, too. Perfect Focus seems especially strong in a game where the potential downside - the idea that an adventure might occasionally start in the middle of that focus - is guaranteed to never come into play.
Last edited by Fusilliban on Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

ChrisDDickey
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Re: Some ideas about Thread Item crafting

Post by ChrisDDickey » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:47 pm

Not certain that "Second chance" belongs on the "unique" list as it is "unique to all". I mean yes, it should only be available to on master items, and probably only in the upper ranks of master items, but it is not really unique.

Also, a lot of the Talents on the list are pretty harmless in low concentrations. Having +3 or +4 to forge armor is pretty useless unless you already have lots of ranks in it or would rather have sucky armor rather than paying NPCs to do it. So pluses to forge armor is very valuable to a Weaponsmith. Pretty useless to anybody who is not and is not planning on functioning as one.

In Thanes case, Ethereal Weapon gives an ability that I would really love him to have. But unless I can get him 10 or 15 ranks of it, it is not really worth having at all. A lot of these talents would be in the same boat. Not worth having unless you have it a lot. So once again, If I already have, or am planning to get, 10 ranks, then having +2 or +5 would be wonderful. But just having a +5 from an item, and nothing else seems just short of worthless. Of course if I can get three items that each give me a +5 or more in the same "unique" talent, that is a different story.

Some Talents are not like that of course. Having just one rank in Great Leap, Life Check, Blood of the Deaths Sea, Etc. is a huge benefit. But any talent that needs to hit a TN of your opponents PD or MD is probably useless unless you can get your rank up near your circle where you can actually hit the TN required.
Just my opinion.

Fusilliban
Posts:105
Joined:Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:45 am

Re: Some ideas about Thread Item crafting

Post by Fusilliban » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:32 am

ChrisDDickey wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:47 pm
Not certain that "Second chance" belongs on the "unique" list as it is "unique to all". I mean yes, it should only be available to on master items, and probably only in the upper ranks of master items, but it is not really unique.
Good catch.

For the rest, I don't disagree that the utility of those things is maybe questionable, but I don't want to make characters feel like someone else stole one of their best tricks.

I think that the first pass is going to be the more restrictive option for the unique/rare/etc Talents listed above, and if later on we have a general consensus that these Talents should not be limited, we can rewind that. But, given how few of us have experience with TI crafting in this sort of setting, it may be best to start with the more-toned-down option.

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