EDC vs ED4

Discussion on the Earthdawn game line, errata, and feedback not related to playing or GMing.
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Kosmit
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Re: EDC vs ED4

Post by Kosmit » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:10 am

The Undying wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:14 pm
It's interesting that you note your involvement in the earlier editions being focused on magics. Honestly, I'd say the core magician Disciplines are actually one of the least healthy parts of ED4.

- the extra Thread mechanic managed to create something neat and fun (spell customization) while compounding the least fun part of being a magician (Threadweaving)
- the loss of spell head count and the over focus on combat spells make the Disciplines feel weaker (to me) out of combat, where they supposed to have good and interesting impact (Illusionist are in the best shape here)
- the changes to summoning feel way overly punitive: 30 minute ritual makes it Difficult to do when you need it and burdensome on your companions; many/most activities will complete in far under an hour, let alone multiple hours; summoner mystic defense matches or outpaces spirit ability Step for aid/enhance, making these risky for even the minimal benefits they provide. Basically, it feels like trying to cull back an overly hot fire (summoning was whackadoo before ED4), they just extinguished the fire, leaving us with the mostly dead embers.
1. Seriously, I'm starting to think that it's the only thing you can talk about. Threadweaving tax, threadweaving tax and threadweaving tax. It's part of being magician since the beggining of ED and it's just the way it is. If it bothers you - just cut the threadweaving out of your game - make spellcasting longer without additional tests. Or merge spellcasting and threadweaving into one talent.

2. More spells will eventually come out. Out of combat utility spells can be put under Half Magic until more come out.

3. Because Summoning was way to powerful. I am not very pleased with 30 minutes ritual (More of a fan for Rating rounds but... I can always changed that).

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The Undying
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Re: EDC vs ED4

Post by The Undying » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:13 am

Kosmit wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:10 am
1. Seriously, I'm starting to think that it's the only thing you can talk about. Threadweaving tax, threadweaving tax and threadweaving tax. It's part of being magician since the beggining of ED and it's just the way it is. If it bothers you - just cut the threadweaving out of your game - make spellcasting longer without additional tests. Or merge spellcasting and threadweaving into one talent.
Wow, man. You really need to relax. Feel free to look through my posts, I talk about plenty beyond the threadweaving tax. Extra threads are also 100% a new thing in ED4, so I think it's pretty relevant in a "EDC vs ED4" thread.

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Kosmit
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Re: EDC vs ED4

Post by Kosmit » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:19 am

I am relaxed and like to read what you write but I was out of grid for couple of days and after coming back I saw a lot of posts complaining about something that was discussed and is talked about in preview comments, talent threads etc.

Sorry if I sounded too harsh. Wasn't meant to be ;)
Last edited by Kosmit on Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The Undying
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Re: EDC vs ED4

Post by The Undying » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:34 am

No worries. :)

Now, on the Threadweaving Tax ... ;)

Seriously, you're right - this topic is talked to death, it is what it is, and honestly, while Spliced Weave shows up pretty late, I think it's all in a relatively healthy place. I wasn't trying to rehash it here. That being said, I do think it's worthwhile to note in an "EDC vs ED4" thread. It's not like all spells have suddenly become Thread 0 or 1, so all the old "do I Threadweave a spell or cast something fast" still exist, but ED4 adds the elment of "do I take extra turn(s) Threadweaving this spell."

Anyways ...

On the spell stuff? Yes, more spells will come out. This will get rectified. In a few years. So, in an "EDC vs ED4" context, that's a problem right now.

And on the Summoning stuff? Yes, Summoning was too powerful. Like crazy, whackadoo, "I can pull meteors out of the sky on a whim" powerful. But you yourself say that the 30 minute ritual is too much (or, at least, that's how I'm reading your "not very pleased" statement), which supports the idea that the pendulum swung a bit too far.

By the by, I also don't want to sound overly negative about ED4. My post was specific about magic. I like the FUN element of extra threads (it's just unfortunate it's less likely to get used). There's also a WORLD of great non-magic stuff that ED4 brought. Ditching armor defeating hits I think is a reason in and of itself to move to ED4.

Dyrmagnos
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Re: EDC vs ED4

Post by Dyrmagnos » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:01 am

In our group we solved (3-rd ed) problem of summoning in 1 big hotfix. Summonig spirit last for Strenght minutes with possibility of reducing that to Strenght round by increasing dificulty by 1 step and to 1 round by 2 successes. For me there should be a knack to do it with blood magic (something like nethermancer ability) or just to keep spirit longer.

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The Undying
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Re: EDC vs ED4

Post by The Undying » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:53 pm

That's a good approach.

For what it's worth, there is still time to alter summoning time RAW. Knacks could be published in the Companion that reduce the summoning time probably in exchange for reduce service time (although I still think there's room to reduce a THIRTY MINUTE ritual without eroding service time). It's unfortunate that summoners would have to purchase knacks, but ce la vie.

However, barring a "we changed our minds" section in the Companion, the enhance/aid are what they are. (30 minute ritual for A CHANCE to summon a spirit for A CHANCE to negotiate for A CHANCE at a 1 time boost on the order of a Desperate charm? Three chances at failure should net a lot more than that, even without the 30 minute lead time).

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