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FASA Games, Inc.FASA Games Forums and News 2017-02-16T00:38:34 http://fasagames.com/forum/app.php/feed/topic/90 2017-02-16T00:38:342017-02-16T00:38:34 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90&p=1532#p1532 <![CDATA[Re: Spliced Weave problems [RESOLVED]]]> Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:38 am

]]> 2017-02-15T22:28:252017-02-15T22:28:25 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90&p=1523#p1523 <![CDATA[Re: Spliced Weave problems [RESOLVED]]]>
I actually like that limitation - it's a pretty significant trade off for being able to eliminate the lost turn doing a Standard Action Threadweaving. However I'm not married to it - there just NEEDS to be a reason to advance this, otherwise it's just not a well designed Talent. The Knacks I through out, or something like them, could fill that need - but SOMETHING needs to be there.

Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:28 pm

]]> 2017-02-15T19:19:432017-02-15T19:19:43 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90&p=1522#p1522 <![CDATA[Re: Spliced Weave]]>
Mataxes wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:57 am
This means the limit you've imposed should be effectively doubled. Because you can (assuming you make the tests) use it to weave threads for two spells. Want to cast two instances of Razor Orb in a single round, each maximum extra threads for a Master (so 7 threads each)? Spliced Weave combined with Concise Casting lets you do that. You need Spliced Weave at Rank 14... (for the 14 total threads you have), but it can be done.

Simple Action: Spliced Weave 14 threads to weave the threads (7 each) for two instances of the spell.
Standard Action: Spellcasting for the first instance of the spell.
Simple Action: Concise Casting for the second instance of the spell.

Now, admittedly, you aren't likely to need that much all at once very often... but you can.
Having access to the Preview, I did miss the fact that Spliced Weave was a Simple action. Thanks for pointing that out. This talent sounds a LOT better now.

That said, rereading it now, I can't see a limitation on the number of threads you can weave with Spliced Weave. I'm not sure what to make of that. I think it's a good limitation, but at the same time, pretty restrictive compared to what they could probably do with a single Threadweaving test.

Statistics:Posted by Dougansf — Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:19 pm

]]> 2017-02-15T14:30:462017-02-15T14:30:46 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90&p=1520#p1520 <![CDATA[Re: Spliced Weave]]>
The Undying wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:40 am
Glad to hear this. As I said in some other thread, wasn't sure if the previews were meant explicitly as a "sneak peek" or a "hey, here's what we're planning, but there's still room for changes if necessary, so speak up [respectfully]".
The experience so far with the FASA Games Crew has been:

1. They post several completed chapters of the book in a Kickstarter Update.
2. Backers beat the shit out of it.
3. They update those chapters in the manuscript and post the full text of the book in a Kickstarter Update.
4. Backers beat the shit out of it.
5. They update the chapters with (many of) the changes we've suggested and art and post the very nearly final print of the book in a Kickstarter Update.
6. Backers beat the shit out of it.
7. The book is printed.

Off the top of my head, some of the changes made have been:
Changing the order of chapters in the Players' Guide
Changing the name of several Players' Guide Talents
Changing how Free Spell Matrices work
Consolidating Creature Maneuvers and Powers

Statistics:Posted by etherial — Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:30 pm

]]> 2017-02-15T04:40:022017-02-15T04:40:02 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90&p=1511#p1511 <![CDATA[Re: Spliced Weave]]>
Mataxes wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:26 am
Spliced Weave is just a Rank that sets a limit on Simple action Thread Weaving. But it otherwise works as I described it.
Mataxes wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:57 am
That is, you use the Spliced Weave talent Step to (try to) weave a number of threads up to a limit of the rank in Spliced Weave.
Not trying to beat you up, just trying to make sure I get a clear picture: Spliced Weave Rank is both (a) number of Simple Action Thread Weaving tests that can be done, AND (b) number of successes that can be achieved over all those tests? Second quote suggests A + B. First quote suggests just A.
Mataxes wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:26 am
(As it stands at this moment... Everything we've previewed is still subject to change and tweaking... etc. etc.)

(Yes, this includes Plant Talk as a Discipline talent.)
Glad to hear this. As I said in some other thread, wasn't sure if the previews were meant explicitly as a "sneak peek" or a "hey, here's what we're planning, but there's still room for changes if necessary, so speak up [respectfully]".

Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:40 am

]]> 2017-02-15T04:37:122017-02-15T04:37:12 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90&p=1510#p1510 <![CDATA[Re: Spliced Weave]]>
Mataxes wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:26 am
Discipline...fart...head?
Thanks for the clarification!

Statistics:Posted by Tattered Rags — Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:37 am

]]> 2017-02-15T04:26:032017-02-15T04:26:03 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90&p=1508#p1508 <![CDATA[Re: Spliced Weave]]>
Tattered Rags wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:20 am
Mataxes wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:57 am
Put simply, Spliced Weave is the "Claw Frenzy" of Thread Weaving (a Simple action instead of Standard, but the principle is the same). That is, you use the Spliced Weave talent Step to (try to) weave a number of threads up to a limit of the rank in Spliced Weave.
(emphasis added)

Clarification, please, are we rolling Spliced Weave or our Discipline's Threadweaving for these threads?
Discipline Thread Weaving. (Sorry. Brain fart. Do you realize how much stuff I have to keep in my head? It's crowded in here!)

Spliced Weave is just a Rank that sets a limit on Simple action Thread Weaving. But it otherwise works as I described it.

(As it stands at this moment... Everything we've previewed is still subject to change and tweaking... etc. etc.)

(Yes, this includes Plant Talk as a Discipline talent.)

Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:26 am

]]> 2017-02-15T04:20:102017-02-15T04:20:10 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90&p=1507#p1507 <![CDATA[Re: Spliced Weave]]>
Mataxes wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:57 am
Put simply, Spliced Weave is the "Claw Frenzy" of Thread Weaving (a Simple action instead of Standard, but the principle is the same). That is, you use the Spliced Weave talent Step to (try to) weave a number of threads up to a limit of the rank in Spliced Weave.
(emphasis added)

Clarification, please, are we rolling Spliced Weave or our Discipline's Threadweaving for these threads?

Statistics:Posted by Tattered Rags — Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:20 am

]]> 2017-02-15T03:22:592017-02-15T03:22:59 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90&p=1505#p1505 <![CDATA[Re: Spliced Weave problems [RESOLVED]]]> Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:22 am

]]> 2017-02-15T02:17:132017-02-15T02:17:13 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90&p=1504#p1504 <![CDATA[Re: Spliced Weave]]>
  • (To be clear I'm reading you correctly)If I want to weave 14 threads, and can easily achieve that over four Threadweaving tests, but I only have Spliced Weave Rank 4, I cannot achieve the 14 threads because I am limited to 4 threads when using Spliced Weave at this Rank - is this correct?
  • If I want to weave 14 threads, and can easily achieve that over four Threadweaving tests, and I have Spliced Weave Rank 14:
    • How much does the Spliced Weave cost [Strain per Threadweaving test rolled or Strain per thread to be achieved]?
    • How many Threadweaving tests are made [if I have to pay for 14, then I can keep rolling until I achieve 14 successes, but if I can guess that it will only take 4 and only pay for 4 Threadweaving test, can I achieve those 14 threads in just 4 tests assuming I get sufficient successes]?

    • Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:17 am

    ]]>         2017-02-15T02:05:442017-02-15T02:05:44 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90&p=1503#p1503 <![CDATA[Re: Spliced Weave]]>
    Mataxes wrote: ↑
    Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:57 am
    This means the limit you've imposed should be effectively doubled. Because you can (assuming you make the tests) use it to weave threads for two spells. Want to cast two instances of Razor Orb in a single round, each maximum extra threads for a Master (so 7 threads each)? Spliced Weave combined with Concise Casting lets you do that. You need Spliced Weave at Rank 14... (for the 14 total threads you have), but it can be done.
    It seems like there's more to the Talent that wasn't communicated in the previews. Based on what you're saying here, it sounds like you need one Spliced Weave Rank per thread woven. That doesn't come across, only "make up to Rank Threadweaving tests." All my examples have been based off a "you only need maybe three Threadweaving tests to get those 14 threads woven, meaning you only need Spliced Weave Rank 3."

    Are you willing to just provide the as-is text for the Talent? If you do that, I think you'll both end-run my remaining questions and demonstrate that additional ranks have value, thereby closing this thread.

    Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:05 am

    ]]>         2017-02-15T01:57:092017-02-15T01:57:09 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90&p=1502#p1502 <![CDATA[Re: Spliced Weave]]>
    The Undying wrote: ↑
    Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:33 am
    That being said, I still believe this is a bad TALENT if it only begs for a couple Ranks. That doesn't mean it's fundamentally flawed, but I really think there should be a reason to get this to Rank 15. If you give the players a reason to do that, my objections to this as a Talent would be completely removed. Maybe you've already got one as a Knack and we just don't know it. If you don't, there's still plenty of time, although maybe the Talent would need a renaming (a la "Chain Magic" or "Multi-Magic").
    Put simply, Spliced Weave is the "Claw Frenzy" of Thread Weaving (a Simple action instead of Standard, but the principle is the same). That is, you use the Spliced Weave talent Step to (try to) weave a number of threads up to a limit of the rank in Spliced Weave.

    So, if you only have one rank, it's no better than regular thread weaving.

    I understand what your concern is with regard to "only needing a few ranks" because a spell only has so many, but keep in mind the combo build you can get when you factor in Concise Casting (which has had any references to thread limits for a spell cast with it removed in the most recent builds).

    This means the limit you've imposed should be effectively doubled. Because you can (assuming you make the tests) use it to weave threads for two spells. Want to cast two instances of Razor Orb in a single round, each maximum extra threads for a Master (so 7 threads each)? Spliced Weave combined with Concise Casting lets you do that. You need Spliced Weave at Rank 14... (for the 14 total threads you have), but it can be done.

    Simple Action: Spliced Weave 14 threads to weave the threads (7 each) for two instances of the spell.
    Standard Action: Spellcasting for the first instance of the spell.
    Simple Action: Concise Casting for the second instance of the spell.

    Now, admittedly, you aren't likely to need that much all at once very often... but you can.

    Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:57 am

    ]]>         2017-02-15T02:01:012017-02-15T01:33:29 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90&p=1501#p1501 <![CDATA[Re: Spliced Weave]]>
    Mataxes wrote: ↑
    Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:14 am
    Spliced Weave is, in many ways, the new Multi Weaving. It's a Simple action, so it can can be done the same round as Spellcasting. In fact, it combines with Concise Casting to allow (in theory) two spells with multiple threads per round.

    I don't know if the problem came up in the way I described the preview, or whether changes that happened in the course of development over the last couple of months changed things from my earlier description, or what...

    But the talent does what it sounds like you want it to do. Ranks matter (more ranks = more threads per round -- which works great with the potential for two spells per round), it allows weaving and casting in a single round, and actually does more than Multi-Weaving, because it combines with earlier talents to allow (potentially) two spells (with threads) per round.
    First, as always, let me thank you for chiming in. I know you're busy. I'll do my best to be brief in my response.

    I definitely agree, I misunderstood the Talent. I may have missed it, but I don't think it was ever stated that Spliced Weave was, itself, a Simple Action. My assumption was that Spliced Weave was a Standard Action which allowed you to perform a number of Threadweaving tests as Simple Actions. If Spliced Weave is, in itself, a Simple Action, then I think this is an incredibly powerful ability.

    That being said, I still believe this is a bad TALENT if it only begs for a couple Ranks. That doesn't mean it's fundamentally flawed, but I really think there should be a reason to get this to Rank 15. If you give the players a reason to do that, my objections to this as a Talent would be completely removed. Maybe you've already got one as a Knack and we just don't know it. If you don't, there's still plenty of time, although maybe the Talent would need a renaming (a la "Chain Magic" or "Multi-Magic").

    Some recommendations for Knacks:
    • Let's face it, once an Adept has a few ranks in this, all that's being done is prolonging the inevitable - they're going to get the threads in a single turn, it's just going to cost Strain and a bunch of rolls. We can leverage this as a design space. The following may look messy, but we have precedence in Knacks with this structure (e.g., Matrix Objects)
      • Expedited Weaving, Novice (Spliced Weaving 5): For 1 additional Strain when using Spliced Weave to weave a Novice spell, the magician adds the effect of one extra thread to the spell as though a thread was woven. Standard limits on the number of extra threads apply.
      • Expedited Weaving, Journeyman (Spliced Weaving 9): For 1 additional Strain when using Spliced Weave to weave a Journeyman spell, the magician adds the effect of one extra thread to the spell as though a thread was woven. Standard limits on the number of extra threads apply.
      • Expedited Weaving, Warden (Spliced Weaving 13): For 1 additional Strain when using Spliced Weave to weave a Warden spell, the magician adds the effect of one extra thread to the spell as though a thread was woven. Standard limits on the number of extra threads apply.
      • Expedited Weaving, Master (Spliced Weaving 15): For 2 additional Strain when using Spliced Weave to weave any spell, the magician adds the effect of one extra thread to the spell as though a thread was woven. Standard limits on the number of extra threads apply. This ability can be used with other effects that grant free extra threads.
    • One of the really interesting design spaces for Spliced Weave is Multi-Discipline spells. Granted, I don't think any of these have ever actually be published, but guidelines for making them have been provided in old editions. One requirement is that a thread for each Discipline must be woven. We can embrace that kind of thing here. It also builds up a space for tables that want to use it: probably LOTS of adventuring required to uncover these kinds of spells.
      • Cross-Discipline Weaving (Spliced Weaving 8): When using Spliced Weave to weave a Multi-Discipline spell, each Threadweaving test is performed with a +2 bonus.
      • Cross-Discipline Mastery (Spliced Weaving 12): When using Spliced Weave to weave a Multi-Discipline spell, the magician adds the effect of one extra thread to the spell as though a thread was woven. Standard limits on the number of extra threads apply. This ability can be used with other effects that grant free extra threads.
    • If we just want to do one thing that adds an interesting punch, we could increase the number of extra threads available. Just have to be REALLY careful here since this Talent basically means that EVERY extra thread is ALMOST ALWAYS going to be woven.
      • Spell Weaving Mastery (Spliced Weaving 15): For 3 additional Strain when using Spliced Weave to weave any spell, the magician can weave one additional extra thread beyond their existing maximum extra thread count.

    Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:33 am

    ]]>         2017-02-15T01:14:062017-02-15T01:14:06 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90&p=1499#p1499 <![CDATA[Re: Spliced Weave]]>
    The Undying wrote: ↑
    Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:14 am

    3) Put the old Multi-Weaving into where Spliced Weave currently is...
    I suddenly understand the issue you have. You haven't been understanding what the talent does.

    Spliced Weave is, in many ways, the new Multi Weaving. It's a Simple action, so it can can be done the same round as Spellcasting. In fact, it combines with Concise Casting to allow (in theory) two spells with multiple threads per round.

    I don't know if the problem came up in the way I described the preview, or whether changes that happened in the course of development over the last couple of months changed things from my earlier description, or what...

    But the talent does what it sounds like you want it to do. Ranks matter (more ranks = more threads per round -- which works great with the potential for two spells per round), it allows weaving and casting in a single round, and actually does more than Multi-Weaving, because it combines with earlier talents to allow (potentially) two spells (with threads) per round.

    Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:14 am

    ]]>         2017-02-15T00:14:362017-02-15T00:14:36 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90&p=1495#p1495 <![CDATA[Re: Spliced Weave]]>
    It's hard to say what options are available, given that I have neither the exact Talent text for the Companion nor do I know the Knacks that will be made available. Based on what is available in ED3, though, my recommendations would be as follows.

    1) Ditch the Spliced Weave Talent. It is not a good Talent. Don't get me wrong, it's a good ability, but it's a horrible Talent.

    2) Make a new Circle 15 Knack with some or all of the Spliced Weave capability. A Circle-based Knack rather than Rank-based would be a new concept, but it's perfectly in fitting with the idea of Circle-based spell effects introduced in ED4. The downside is that we've made the cost pretty obscene. However, again, we can forge new ground with Knack costing since we're defining a new Knack requirement idea anyways. Call it something like "Magician Circle 15, Threadweaving 8" - the Adept has to meet both Circle and Rank requirements, but the Rank is what determines the cost. Cost the Knack sufficiently so that they can just do the Splice Weave effect up to Threadweaving Rank times out of the box - again, the idea of a Talent that only needs 1-4 Ranks is just bad, giving someone access above that is mathematically useless, so just give them Threadweaving Rank and be done with it.

    3) Put the old Multi-Weaving into where Spliced Weave currently is. This does a bunch of great things. It's exciting - a magician can finally cast a powered up spell on a single turn! It feels worthy of the Circle 15 spot. It benefits from Rank improvement, which makes it a good Talent candidate. It unequivocally tells players that "this, and only this, is how we envision single turn Threadweaving & Spellcasting to work." Rename it and tweak the wording though - if you want to throw Magicians a bone for all their investment in "bonus to Threadweaving" gear while making it still distinct from "+Rank to Threadweaving" gear, have it say "The magician makes a Threadweaving test, using their Multi-Weaving Rank instead of their Threadweaving Rank." That way, anything they have that can improve Threadweaving TESTS don't lose their value.

    4) Make a specific recommendation somewhere to NOT make a Knack for Multi-Weaving that essentially adds the Spliced Weave effect on it. This keeps the Multi-Weaving distinct and keeps it from completely replacing Threadweaving. At Multi-Weaving Rank 15, the Adept can pull off a LOT of tricks with that Simple Action Threadweaving Step ~25, and that's awesome. HOWEVER, it's still limited - if they want to stack more threads than they can get away with in that Step, or they want assurance that they'll actually complete the weaving, then too bad, you have to add a Standard Action Threadweaving (with or without Spliced Weave effect).

    5) Make a design decision on one of two roads and specify the Talent text or Knack as appropriate. Option 1: Threadweaving & Multi-Weaving build the same spell. In other words, a magician can use both Threadweaving & Multi-Weaving to weave a spell. The idea here is that Multi-Weaving can act as insurance: the magician, say, declared two Threadweaving tests with the Spliced Weave effect and comes up one success short. Rather than losing another turn Threadweaving, they can [hopefully] get that last thread with a Multi-Weaving test, either on that Threadweaving turn or the next Spellcasting turn. Option 2: Threadweaving CANNOT stack with Multi-Weaving. In other words, a Multi-Weave spell must be started from scratch on the turn it would be cast, and it must be successfully completed and cast on that turn. This creates an interesting risk/reward for the Talent with Rules As Written - if the player stretches too far and attempts to pull off too many Threads, and they fail to get all the successes, they've wasted that turn, the woven threads of the unfinished spell just fall apart. If you go this route, though, I'd make a Rank 15 Multi-Weave Talent that allows the Talent to be used TWICE (not Rank times) in a single turn.

    Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:14 am

    ]]>