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FASA Games, Inc.FASA Games Forums and News 2017-03-27T15:42:51 http://fasagames.com/forum/app.php/feed/topic/81 2017-03-27T15:42:512017-03-27T15:42:51 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81&p=2086#p2086 <![CDATA[Re: Optional Rules for Companion]]>
ED seems to need a bunch of very general rules covering rather abstract situations like:

- what happens when one character helps another in an action?
- to what extent can you retake test?
- what happens when you take extra time to a test?
- what happens when you try to do something quickly?
- suppose that a character is bound to succeed in an action. How do you figure out how long will it take?

While some of these situation are addressed in some specific mechanics there is no general guidelines about them and nowadays you can really typically find rules of this kind in RPGs. While I understand that Earthdawn is by design a bit oldschool (which I really find a major upside by the way!), it seems reasonable to include some general advice about this kind of situations that pop up a lot in actual play (it seems to be something that modern RPGs really do better).

Statistics:Posted by BRW — Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:42 pm

]]> 2017-02-07T19:06:462017-02-07T19:06:46 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81&p=1402#p1402 <![CDATA[Re: Optional Rules for Companion]]>

DrJoker wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:27 am

Yeah... no thanks. Sacrificing a Standard Action to get a Move action next round is a horrible trade in any action economy.

DrJoker wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:27 am
It's a neat ruling system and gives the warrior discipline more weight, since the warrior is the only one who may act freely on the battle field, as it should be.

The Warrior (and other fighter Disciplines) have plenty of weight in ED4. See several other posts by Undying around the forums.

Statistics:Posted by Dougansf — Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:06 pm

]]> 2017-02-07T08:43:402017-02-07T08:43:40 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81&p=1395#p1395 <![CDATA[Re: Optional Rules for Companion]]> Statistics:Posted by Lys — Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:43 am

]]> 2017-02-07T08:27:162017-02-07T08:27:16 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81&p=1393#p1393 <![CDATA[Re: Optional Rules for Companion]]>

Dougansf wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:07 pm

Lys wrote:There's already an Optional Rule in 3e that introduces something like that. Fleeing From Combat on page 229: "A character who wants to move to get away from a close combat fight he is involved in can only do so if his Initiative Test result is higher than that of his opponents." In my game, we interpreted it as also preventing you from running past enemies whose initiative wasn't lower than yours.

Wow, that's too harsh, to the point of boring combat. Only people with high initiatives ever get to move. It also means no chance for escape for archers and casters who get into melee.

Well, no. In 3rd ED you'd have to combine it with the Delayed Action Combat Rule. If you cant move because of low initiative, you have to delay your action until next round. Then you would win Initiative by Default and dont have to roll for it.
It boils down to giving up a standard action to be able to move away from the fighter or bring yourself into an advantagous position. It's a neat ruling system and gives the warrior discipline more weight, since the warrior is the only one who may act freely on the battle field, as it should be.

Statistics:Posted by DrJoker — Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:27 am

]]> 2017-02-06T09:15:482017-02-06T09:15:48 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81&p=1348#p1348 <![CDATA[Re: Optional Rules for Companion]]> Statistics:Posted by Kosmit — Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:15 am

]]> 2017-02-05T20:49:252017-02-05T20:49:25 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81&p=1338#p1338 <![CDATA[Re: Optional Rules for Companion]]>

BRW wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:31 pm

One optional rule I would really love to see is some guidelines for the continued advancement which is not capped at any point. In particular, a possibility to advance talents past rank 15.

I see some people have done the math for you, and some have said there is no technical reason.

You know, I have used many systems over the years and in fact made two different systems where we played EarthDawn but with my own system. I LOVE the EarthDawn system precisely because the dice are bizarre and you get enjoyable off the chart rolls.

That being said - you really aren't playing EarthDawn if you extend the system. Assume you hit "Grand Master" tier or something for Circles 17-20. What happens to Great Leap? Sure, maybe it just gets that extra few ranks. If you proceed with that line of thinking then the items, difficulties and such just go down one level and it feels video-game-ish. Verjigorm is now your toy.

I'd recommend keeping the system locked at 15 (Master) and any mysteries beyond that are with custom Thread Weaving concepts and custom Talents learned or honed or invented.

If you prefer to go above 15 - I'd think it more likely to move to Demi-God / God / Super-Hero power levels. Think Exalted or Champions or whatnot. For a specific example, imagine that a Circle 17 character now has access to a modifier Knack that allows your Great Leap to change from yards to decayards or even miles. Imagine something similar for Winning Smile affecting everyone who can see the character. The point is - once above Master Tier, the powers are so "overpowering" that dealing with Mortal Issues doesn't even garner the character's attention. Speaking with the Passions or other powerful beings becomes the character's mind's new food.

Certainly the numbers allow it - if you just use the normal system - but a Great Dragon isn't so great any longer.

Statistics:Posted by Loba — Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:49 pm

]]> 2017-02-05T18:05:422017-02-05T18:05:42 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81&p=1331#p1331 <![CDATA[Re: Optional Rules for Companion]]>

Lys wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:29 am

As an aside though, it did always bugged me how Novice, Journeyman, and Warden all span 4 Circles, but Master only spans 3 Circles. It always seemed to me like the progression suggested that Disciplines had 16 Circles, not 15.

Perhaps there used to be, but with the declining magic level these legendary strengths are lost, and history has confused Circle 16 with 15.

Statistics:Posted by Tattered Rags — Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:05 pm

]]> 2017-02-05T10:31:262017-02-05T10:31:26 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81&p=1330#p1330 <![CDATA[Re: Optional Rules for Companion]]>
The more I think about it, I come to the conclusion that I would be happy if it were just stated somewhere in print that, optionally, GM's may lift the strict cap of 15 ranks and nothing will break down (with LP costs given by Fibonacci sequence). This shouldn't be really space-consuming. It would be just nice to know that you can have some extra room.

Statistics:Posted by BRW — Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:31 am

]]> 2017-02-05T05:29:302017-02-05T05:29:30 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81&p=1329#p1329 <![CDATA[Re: Optional Rules for Companion]]>
As an aside though, it did always bugged me how Novice, Journeyman, and Warden all span 4 Circles, but Master only spans 3 Circles. It always seemed to me like the progression suggested that Disciplines had 16 Circles, not 15.

Statistics:Posted by Lys — Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:29 am

]]> 2017-02-04T09:03:552017-02-04T09:03:55 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81&p=1316#p1316 <![CDATA[Re: Optional Rules for Companion]]> Statistics:Posted by Kosmit — Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:03 am

]]> 2017-02-04T08:18:512017-02-04T08:18:51 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81&p=1315#p1315 <![CDATA[Re: Optional Rules for Companion]]>
I was not thinking specifically of going up with circles (I am fine with this, since the circles are really part of the setting), but rather with pure ranks of talents plus maybe some crunchy stuff people can get better with, like knack design system so that it doesn't get completely dull number increasement.

Admittedly, I didn't have any very specific solution in mind. I just thought that something along that lines could be considered by the authors as a viable set of optional rules.

Honestly, I didn't really think of any actual use of the unbounded progression in game. I am new to Earthdawn (not so much to RPGs) and the cap for talents striked me as artificial and not very elegant, since the step mechanics makes any cap really unnecessary. So my question was mostly for aesthetic reasons.

Say, the cap for skills in the Burning Wheel also could theoretically be lifted, but this would take lots of adjustments elsewhere in the system. In the old WoD cap of five dots could be increased along with some in-game changes to the characters, so it represents something, so it better not be changed on a whim.

Basically, looking at ED, which I really enjoy, I was put off by the artificial restriction which seemed not really crucial, and I wanted to understand whether one can have more room there or not. And I thought that if the answer is yes, it could be written for the record somewhere in the book.

Statistics:Posted by BRW — Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:18 am

]]> 2017-02-04T02:30:212017-02-04T02:30:21 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81&p=1304#p1304 <![CDATA[Re: Optional Rules for Companion]]>
Basically, no, there probably isn't a reason except that it'd take more work developing higher-level material and the balance problems that start to trickle in at Journeyman and get super super bad by Master are definitely not going to get better with more Circles. Also, spells are literally world-changing by Circle 15 - how do you go up from that?

Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:30 am

]]> 2017-02-04T00:57:512017-02-04T00:57:51 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81&p=1302#p1302 <![CDATA[Re: Optional Rules for Companion]]>
My problem was not with extending the Fibonacci sequence (I hoped this was clear from the question). I think the question rather splits as follows:

1. Are there any reasons not to extend the LP costs via the same recurrence as up to rank 15? The mathematics behind the step system seems perfectly adapted to deal with arbitrarily large values of any parameters involved, way better than in systems whose core is based on percents or than d20 (in the step system, we get more or less normal distributions with the expected value roughy equal to the step, at least in case of the steps big enough). So maybe something would really break down in a subtle manner in some other place in the system? The cap seemed so arbitrary that my guess was no, but making it a two-sentence optional rule would make this quite clear.

2. Would going past 15 in a game be abhorrent and disgraceful or just unnecessary? The mechanics of Earthdawn is extremely close to the setting itself, much closer than in most games, so maybe there is something in the world that would make further progression incoherent? Is the number 15 somehow dignified? I imagine that it well could be, but I do not now this setting good enough to make a safe guess. Maybe the cap is there to actually represent something (nota bene, the cap for skills seems perfectly justified).

From your answer, I guess that the answer to both questions should be that the cap is indeed somewhat arbitrary. I think that allowing to lift the cap as the optional rule would make it clear to everyone. Otherwise, I would be unsure as a GM, whether or not to allow further progression if it otherwise fits the mood of the campaign.

Once again, thank you for the reply.

Statistics:Posted by BRW — Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:57 am

]]> 2017-02-04T00:31:372017-02-04T00:31:37 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81&p=1301#p1301 <![CDATA[Re: Optional Rules for Companion]]>
So, that would be my personal recommendation. HOWEVER, barring that, if you want some truly epic Ranks, I would say that you don't really need an Optional Rule.

Earthdawn uses the Fibonacci sequence to determine LP costs. Each tier (Novice, Journeyman, Warden, Master) offsets the cost by one. The math is pretty easy, but for your convenience, I've gone ahead and included the numbers. Go forth, mold Barsaive into what you will!!!!

----- Novice -----
16159700
17258400
18418100
19676500
201094600
211771100
222865700
234636800
247502500
2512139300

----- Journeyman -----
16258400
17418100
18676500
191094600
201771100
212865700
224636800
237502500
2412139300
2519641800

----- Warden -----
16418100
17676500
181094600
191771100
202865700
214636800
227502500
2312139300
2419641800
2531781100

----- Master -----
16676500
171094600
181771100
192865700
204636800
217502500
2212139300
2319641800
2431781100
2551422900

Bear in mind, the down side is that LP awards will likely increase as well, making basically all Thread Item advancement 100% trivial. That is a very likely problem.

Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:31 am

]]> 2017-02-03T14:31:422017-02-03T14:31:42 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81&p=1286#p1286 <![CDATA[Re: Optional Rules for Companion]]>
Since getting to so high numbers takes very long time in ED, I would expect that such rules should not totally destroy the system (and they would be optional after all), especially since the cost of advancement would be really large after some point (it's Fibonacci anyway, so it's roughly exponential, so it explodes).

Setting-wise, I think that there is nothing that should really make a static cap for talents necessary. Its a high fantasy setting, with an option for really legendary stories and nice in-game explanation of why adepts' talents exceed any mundane limitations.

I know this seems like an invitation to munchkinism (and may seem in bad company with analogous rules in certain other systems), but personally I think that one of nicest things about ED is that it makes what would otherwise be munchkinism actually quite classy. There is a bunch of other games which serves the purpose of telling down-to-earth stories much better. And yet again, it would be optional.

What I would especially like to see is some general advice of what to do once you reach 15th circle, which would explore possibilities of further reinforcing legend of the characters without it getting dull "you may further advance ranks of talents." Maybe some general advice for talent knack design allowing Swordmaster to work out their unique style, and the Bard to come up with new songs never heard?

I understand that the 15th circle is extremely hard to reach anyway, but i think that for such an epic game it would be nice to know that there is something even beyond that, up to GM's discretion.

Statistics:Posted by BRW — Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:31 pm

]]>