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FASA Games, Inc.FASA Games Forums and News 2025-06-03T01:18:42 http://fasagames.com/forum/app.php/feed/topic/80 2025-06-03T01:18:422025-06-03T01:18:42 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80&p=26067#p26067 <![CDATA[Re: [3ED/4ED] New Blood Magic]]> audiobookkeeper.rucottagenet.rueyesvision.rueyesvisions.comfactoringfee.rufilmzones.rugadwall.rugaffertape.rugageboard.rugagrule.rugallduct.rugalvanometric.rugangforeman.rugangwayplatform.rugarbagechute.rugardeningleave.rugascautery.rugashbucket.rugasreturn.rugatedsweep.rugaugemodel.rugaussianfilter.rugearpitchdiameter.ru
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journallubricator.rujuicecatcher.rujunctionofchannels.rujusticiablehomicide.rujuxtapositiontwin.rukaposidisease.rukeepagoodoffing.rukeepsmthinhand.rukentishglory.rukerbweight.rukerrrotation.rukeymanassurance.rukeyserum.rukickplate.rukillthefattedcalf.rukilowattsecond.rukingweakfish.rukinozones.rukleinbottle.rukneejoint.ruknifesethouse.ruknockonatom.ruknowledgestate.ru
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nameresolution.runaphtheneseries.runarrowmouthed.runationalcensus.runaturalfunctor.runavelseed.runeatplaster.runecroticcaries.runegativefibration.runeighbouringrights.ruobjectmodule.ruobservationballoon.ruobstructivepatent.ruoceanmining.ruoctupolephonon.ruofflinesystem.ruoffsetholder.ruolibanumresinoid.ruonesticket.rupackedspheres.rupagingterminal.rupalatinebones.rupalmberry.ru
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rectifiersubstation.ruredemptionvalue.rureducingflange.rureferenceantigen.ruregeneratedprotein.rureinvestmentplan.rusafedrilling.rusagprofile.rusalestypelease.rusamplinginterval.rusatellitehydrology.ruscarcecommodity.ruscrapermat.ruscrewingunit.ruseawaterpump.rusecondaryblock.rusecularclergy.ruseismicefficiency.ruselectivediffuser.rusemiasphalticflux.rusemifinishmachining.ruspicetrade.ruspysale.ru
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Statistics:Posted by yankeeschic — Tue Jun 03, 2025 1:18 am

]]> 2025-05-25T01:28:542025-05-25T01:28:54 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80&p=24039#p24039 <![CDATA[Re: [3ED/4ED] New Blood Magic]]> Иван550.1препBettTeacWindSensпереВасиШтилHenrрубеMeliмашиАВВеТретВиноFish4449ElseMarlЖолоTesc
TescMetaTescSwisGreecucuIchiActiGaleRajnBefoKoeeClubVinoPelhPresFraiWhitSchoсертWizaDollErba
ElizСодеАндрКамбmollElaiIndeWarnAntoblacИллюGravдеятСлептерпАчкаВороwhitviscNikiтелеПулеLeve
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diamпрелзака03-0БедзГоряВороВасиJohnДаниMirkБогаSigmDeltFrisJoycпосистихувлеPhilstarStevавто
БаскколлклеймесяПроисветwhitChinBookязыкBookDaliCasePola2300ДимисложНазаVOLKМетаМонгномеConc
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закоМинчЕвгеОсадСлокШлифШироЗаряКонрCallEarlBlacВетоТимоЛукаустрShartimeДзокМельDonnВиниГоде
автознанAdriПоглMichHendRitcChilhcadКоваLiveавтоПантРыбаBarbКузьТикуВуймТеплоpгаГосимесямеся
месяЛипаучебwww1МихеErinгубеГамоLudwShotDonaСивообщеtuchkasавтоXXII

Statistics:Posted by yankeeschic — Sun May 25, 2025 1:28 am

]]> 2017-01-08T22:28:372017-01-08T22:28:37 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80&p=764#p764 <![CDATA[Re: [3ED/4ED] New Blood Magic]]>

Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:28 pm

]]> 2017-01-08T17:55:522017-01-08T17:55:52 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80&p=755#p755 <![CDATA[Re: [3ED/4ED] New Blood Magic]]>
The Undying wrote:No offense, but it seems odd that you want to try to make a custom Oath of Vengeance to lock an Adept into something, but at the same time, you support the idea that a Blood Promise should just be about TRYING, not ACCOMPLISHING. These things seems very much opposed. "BY MY LIFE, I SWEAR THAT I WILL *whispers* try to *returns to scream* KILL THE MAN THAT SLEW MY BROTHER!!!!!!!!" Not very epic...

Anyways, this really seems like a "you do you" kind of thing. If you're not being sarcastic that people should to their best to not lock themselves into true commitments via Oaths, it sounds like you have a different vision for what Blood Oaths should be used for. Which is fine. For me, I just can't agree with that perspective. At work, if I give my team a task, after negotiations on level of effort, the agreement is DELIVERY, not TRY TO DELIVER. In Earthdawn, I'm pretty sure that if someone swore to TRY REALLY HARD, the other person would go "woah woah woah, stop the oath - you what? You're swearing to TRY??!"
When you're in the middle of angrily swearing vengeance, you probably don't have the presence of mind to carefully word your oath. Anyway it's not contradictory at all, Blood Promise has a time limit of one year, Blood Vengeance has no time limit, so as long as you keep striving for revenge you haven't broken the oath. The "try to" qualifier is already there and you don't have to say it, since you already only fail when you give up.

I have a question. At work if you team runs late because a bunch of them got sick, do you immediately fire them and permanently brand them jobbreakers, making it impossible for them to ever find work again? Or do you simply reprimand them and tell them that they need to plan better around possible set-backs? In most agreements involving reasonable people it's already implied that both parties are going to put forth reasonable effort, because people know that the world is unpredictable and there's always a chance of failure. Blood Promises however are insensitive to that qualifier, which makes me doubt that anybody who is not an idiot would ever swear them.

One difference between our perspectives seem to be that you don't see "trying" as a true commitment, whereas I think the only difference between "promise to try" and "promise to do" is insurance against extenuating circumstances. In real life contracts, people always promise to do because pretty much all of them already have force majeure stipulations baked in to one extent or another. A Blood Oath doesn't unless you word it correctly, and i think it's completely realistic that people would seek to do so for the exact same reasons they do in real life contracts.
The Undying wrote:I think you're getting a bit too wrapped around the axle on this. Blood Oaths are magic, they're not modern day rule of law legal contracts. "I shall take no action." If someone is acting under compulsion, are THEY performing the action? I would say no. Reagrdless, if I knew the standard was "I shall take no action" and someone tried to say "I shall take no intentional action," again, I'd stop the oath process immediately and ask what the deuce was going on. But, as I said, I think we just have a fundamental difference in how we think Blood Oaths should work. And, speaking of which, contracts TOTALLY exist in Earthdawn. Not every little thing requires an Oath. I'd expect that no merchant could ever carry more than three or four clients if they needed a Blood Promise every time they swore to deliver goods or services...
What i'm arguing is that the standard would rapidly become, "I shall take no intentional action", because when the stakes are so high people want to be sure they don't take the fall for things that were not their own fault. Remember that Blood Promises and Blood Peace require two parties, and both of them stand to benefit equally from the improved wording. And yes i realise that contracts exist, there's even a magical artefact called the Hambrel's Contract which is like half-way between a normal contract and a Blood Oath. You generally only take Blood Oaths on serious matters because they are literally fuelled by your life-force. Which is precisely why i think people would normally be really, really careful with what they swear. If normal legal contracts, which have comparatively low stakes, are so carefully and painstakingly worded, then i can only imagine that the same would be true of Blood Oaths.

Statistics:Posted by Lys — Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:55 pm

]]> 2017-01-08T07:15:012017-01-08T07:15:01 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80&p=743#p743 <![CDATA[Re: [3ED/4ED] New Blood Magic]]>
Lys wrote:Remember in Earthdawn people are generally aware of how the mechanics of magic work, which means they are able to optimize around them in-character. Similarly when my character Stormbreaker swore the Oath of Group Peace, she specifically said that she would not "intentionally take action to" or "knowingly allow" harm to befall her group. The qualifiers of "intentionally" and "knowingly" are there so she can only break the Oath if she means to break it, not just because it's plain common sense to do so, but also because she will simply not swear an Oath that can be broken by circumstances outside her control. Nor does she expect anyone else to do so.
I think you're getting a bit too wrapped around the axle on this. Blood Oaths are magic, they're not modern day rule of law legal contracts. "I shall take no action." If someone is acting under compulsion, are THEY performing the action? I would say no. Reagrdless, if I knew the standard was "I shall take no action" and someone tried to say "I shall take no intentional action," again, I'd stop the oath process immediately and ask what the deuce was going on. But, as I said, I think we just have a fundamental difference in how we think Blood Oaths should work.

And, speaking of which, contracts TOTALLY exist in Earthdawn. Not every little thing requires an Oath. I'd expect that no merchant could ever carry more than three or four clients if they needed a Blood Promise every time they swore to deliver goods or services...

Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:15 am

]]> 2017-01-08T06:58:322017-01-08T06:58:32 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80&p=742#p742 <![CDATA[Re: [3ED/4ED] New Blood Magic]]>
Lys wrote:Also i was not being sarcastic about the ProTip. There is no reason why a smart person would ever swear to accomplish a task. Not when they can instead swear to do their best to do so. Blood Wounds suck, being permanently branded an Oathbraker sucks worse, so in the face of incurring such potential harm, why wouldn't you want to make sure that it's impossible to break the oath accidentally? If you only swear to try your best, then the oath can only be broken intentionally by slacking off or being negligent, circumstances beyond your control cannot break it. Moreover the person you're swearing it to is likely to accept it, since the threat of accidental oathbreaking doesn't make you any less likely to accomplish the task, you did promise to try your best.
No offense, but it seems odd that you want to try to make a custom Oath of Vengeance to lock an Adept into something, but at the same time, you support the idea that a Blood Promise should just be about TRYING, not ACCOMPLISHING. These things seems very much opposed. "BY MY LIFE, I SWEAR THAT I WILL *whispers* try to *returns to scream* KILL THE MAN THAT SLEW MY BROTHER!!!!!!!!" Not very epic...

Anyways, this really seems like a "you do you" kind of thing. If you're not being sarcastic that people should to their best to not lock themselves into true commitments via Oaths, it sounds like you have a different vision for what Blood Oaths should be used for. Which is fine. For me, I just can't agree with that perspective. At work, if I give my team a task, after negotiations on level of effort, the agreement is DELIVERY, not TRY TO DELIVER. In Earthdawn, I'm pretty sure that if someone swore to TRY REALLY HARD, the other person would go "woah woah woah, stop the oath - you what? You're swearing to TRY??!"

Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:58 am

]]> 2017-01-08T03:01:232017-01-08T03:01:23 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80&p=739#p739 <![CDATA[Re: [3ED/4ED] New Blood Magic]]> Statistics:Posted by Lys — Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:01 am

]]> 2017-01-08T02:56:302017-01-08T02:56:30 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80&p=738#p738 <![CDATA[Re: [3ED/4ED] New Blood Magic]]>
Not everyone would accept a Blood Oath to "do my best." Some don't care that you tried really, really hard. They want it done, and they expect it done. Others, yeah, more lenient.

Still, what is my best? If I take a day off to help the King of Throal find a magic sword, did I do my best? If I don't spend every waking moment devoted to accomplishing the task, then couldn't I have done better? An Oath may be more Rules-Lawyery than the King of Munchkins, so what happens here?

As for the "intentional harm" and so forth, that's pretty good. I think it's smart.

Statistics:Posted by Tattered Rags — Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:56 am

]]> 2017-01-08T02:34:232017-01-08T02:34:23 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80&p=735#p735 <![CDATA[Re: [3ED/4ED] New Blood Magic]]> have to make sure you've got the right person. However if you don't make sure then you might find yourself stuck between breaking your oath, and doing harm upon one who has not harmed you. It seems appropriately dramatic.

Also i was not being sarcastic about the ProTip. There is no reason why a smart person would ever swear to accomplish a task. Not when they can instead swear to do their best to do so. Blood Wounds suck, being permanently branded an Oathbraker sucks worse, so in the face of incurring such potential harm, why wouldn't you want to make sure that it's impossible to break the oath accidentally? If you only swear to try your best, then the oath can only be broken intentionally by slacking off or being negligent, circumstances beyond your control cannot break it. Moreover the person you're swearing it to is likely to accept it, since the threat of accidental oathbreaking doesn't make you any less likely to accomplish the task, you did promise to try your best.

Remember in Earthdawn people are generally aware of how the mechanics of magic work, which means they are able to optimize around them in-character. Similarly when my character Stormbreaker swore the Oath of Group Peace, she specifically said that she would not "intentionally take action to" or "knowingly allow" harm to befall her group. The qualifiers of "intentionally" and "knowingly" are there so she can only break the Oath if she means to break it, not just because it's plain common sense to do so, but also because she will simply not swear an Oath that can be broken by circumstances outside her control. Nor does she expect anyone else to do so.

Statistics:Posted by Lys — Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:34 am

]]> 2017-01-07T23:29:522017-01-07T23:29:52 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80&p=731#p731 <![CDATA[Re: [3ED/4ED] New Blood Magic]]>
On the whole topic of Blood Oath power and balance and so forth...

Blood Oaths exist to build drama. Really, everything in a pen and paper exists to tell a great co-operateively developed and experienced story. Tabletop miniature systems are simply better for people who want a super crunchy, numbers are be all and end all system. In the case of Earthdawn, the system is really about heroics and good versus evil; epic oaths, going to great lengths to fulfill them, and staggering repercussions upon broken oaths are all part of that.

Blood Oaths are really not there to build up numbers. I'd say there are really two ways to look at this. First, if players are trying desperately to just get super numbers, and the GM is willing to allow it, then just cut out the middle man. There's nothing wrong with playing a super-hero power level Earthdawn game. The balance is just that the super-heroes should just be facing off against super-villains and super-beasts (does anyone really want to play a game where your hero is now so OP that everything is cake?)

Second, in a world where Blood Oaths are taken flippantly ("I solemly promise to use my Spellcasting to make you this breakfast using Heat Food!" and "I solemnly promise to use my Wilderness Survival to find us food for that breakfast!"), two things happen. One, if it's not assumed to be baked into the basics of everyday life. At this point, don't think the Adepts are the most cleverest of clever to have figured out this loophole, I'm sure everyone in Barsaive is doing it, so we're back to the "everything is super-power-level" thing above. Two, it IS baked into the basics of everyday life, in which case base stats take that into account, so Blood Oaths should provide no mechanical bonuses.

Finally, on the topic of innocent outs - Blood Oaths don't really work that way. If you make a Blood Peace, only to find out you ended up with the worse deal, you can't say "Well, this was obviously done as a feint, it doesn't apply, so I'm gonna shank this dude." Do that, and the Oath is broken. If you make a Blood Promise to go hunt down and retrieve an artifact for someone, only to find out that the artifact is the only thing keeping some ancient forest alive, you can't say "oh, I was tricked, I'm not removing this." Do that, and the Oath is broken. All this is totally a thing. And, best of all, it's INTERESTING, great stories, with horrible aftermaths that someone might quest to undo or otherwise make right. And an Adept can DO that quest without making Yet Another Oath.

Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:29 pm

]]> 2017-01-07T23:06:072017-01-07T23:06:07 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80&p=729#p729 <![CDATA[Re: [3ED/4ED] New Blood Magic]]>
And the lack of an out would mean you need to BE VERY SURE. It also leads to stories where someone is actually innocent, but now you're stuck going back on your Blood Vengeance or killing an innocent man (you silly dupe).

edit: It's also, to me, far more interesting without the innocent out.

Statistics:Posted by Tattered Rags — Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:06 pm

]]> 2017-01-07T22:06:042017-01-07T22:06:04 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80&p=728#p728 <![CDATA[Re: [3ED/4ED] New Blood Magic]]>
Tattered Rags wrote:Something like a Blood Vengeance probably shouldn't have an out for people who swear it wrongly. You enter into it, you better be sure. I'd even say you need to Name everyone. At a minimum the True Name creates a connection through your blood for the ritual.
Well i wanted you to be able to swear revenge on people whose True Names you do not know, since the raiders who burned your village and killed your family probably din't stop to introduce themselves, which is why epiphets work (for example "The Black Raiders"). The problem is that if ephiphets work then it necessarily means that vengeance is being directed at those you intended it towards, not necessarily those you actually Named (there might be a gang called The Black Raiders who had nothing to do with it). So i put in the out, but also added a flipside that if you do find those you meant, you have to hunt them down as if they'd been Named. Do keep in mind that i'm balancing this against the fact that you can get the exact same thing by Blood Promising a friend that you're going to seek vengeance, and will less downsides. If you word it correctly, you can even keep your +2 after one year even if you haven't found the perpetrators yet, and you're no longer bound by the Blood Promise. (ProTip: Never promise to do something, instead promise that you will do your best to accomplish it. As long as you sincerely try, it doesn't matter whether you succeed or fail.)

Statistics:Posted by Lys — Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:06 pm

]]> 2017-01-07T14:26:542017-01-07T14:26:54 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80&p=725#p725 <![CDATA[Re: [3ED/4ED] New Blood Magic]]> Statistics:Posted by Tattered Rags — Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:26 pm

]]> 2017-01-07T07:14:172017-01-07T07:14:17 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80&p=722#p722 <![CDATA[Re: [3ED/4ED] New Blood Magic]]> is a limit to how often this can be done. Unless you choose to get a +2 to Durability, in which case you can exploit an infinite health loop. Here's a hint for GMs: Do not allow Blood Oath bonuses to stack, permit only one +2 per item.

And yes the Oath of Feanor is technically a Group Promise between him and his seven children. Which is something that probably deserves a write-up as well, since if Group Peace exists it stands to reason that Group Promise would as well. It really wasn't the best example, but it's the first thing that comes to mind when i think of people swearing revenge and then being forced to stick with it, even at great cost to themselves. The principal point is that i want it to be an option to solemnly swear revenge upon those who wrong you, preferably while rain falls dramatically, and then having no recourse but to follow through with it. The bonus is just there as because blood magic empowers you, as demonstrated by the other oaths.

Statistics:Posted by Lys — Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:14 am

]]> 2017-01-07T06:36:322017-01-07T06:36:32 http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80&p=721#p721 <![CDATA[Re: [3ED/4ED] New Blood Magic]]>
Keep in mind that not everything NEEDS a system, and some things CAN be done simply for fluff. An Adept COULD make a Blood Oath to them self that they would do Thing X, allowing the wound to serve as a reminder to motivate them. A Player COULD do something, simply because they like the flavor, and the GM COULD provide a bonus or two at an opportunity time as a result.

Anyways, aside from all that, you'll notice that Blood Oaths, at least as provided in the Player's Guide, require co-mingling of blood. I would argue it is this co-mingling that provides the connection between the True Patterns through which the magic can actually work. I'd recommend minimally adding something like "the Adept must have caused at least X damage or one Wound to his foe, allowing him to harvest Y amount of blood, which is used as part of the Oath of Vengeance."

Plus, I just looked up the Oath you mentioned (not at all a Tolkein fan), and that was NOT a unilateral Oath as far as I can tell. It was multiple people. So, at a minimum, in the Earthdawn universe, one could see them making a group pact style Blood Promise.

Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:36 am

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