Mataxes wrote: ↑
(This is a case where my "old guard" status shows. Something is either and action or it isn't. Beyond that... ? *shrug*)
I did a search for "Action: Free" in ED4PG and, IMO, the only Free Action this could potentially break is True Shot when mixed with Multi-Shot. Considering that one would likely blow all their Karma and most of their HP, I'm cool with it.Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:52 pm
Except that I'm not 100% sure the division between simple/free actions is consistent enough for that kind of clarification.
(This is a case where my "old guard" status shows. Something is either and action or it isn't. Beyond that... ? *shrug*)
Statistics:Posted by etherial — Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:55 pm
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If the only problem identified thus far is "the once per turn limit does not apply to Damage Replacement Talents," I'd say just add that as errata to the "Talent Test" paragraph (p. 120). If EVERYTHING needs a review, tho, I guess no short cut.
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:41 pm
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Lys wrote: ↑
Except that I'm not 100% sure the division between simple/free actions is consistent enough for that kind of clarification.Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:37 pm
At present that is my recommended errata, as fixes everything with one line.(This is a case where my "old guard" status shows. Something is either and action or it isn't. Beyond that... ? *shrug*)
Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:52 pm
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It seems to me like you would have had no problems if you had worded the rule to say, "Talents that require a Simple Action can only be used once per round unless otherwise noted." That would have caught all the Talents that should have such restrictions but don't (Taunt, Manoeuvre, Spot Armour Flaw), while leaving alone the various free action Talents which are intended to be usable whenever their trigger conditions are met.
At present that is my recommended errata, as fixes everything with one line.
Statistics:Posted by Lys — Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:37 pm
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Taunt, for example, was a (Standard) action until ED4. So by the rules already in those editions it could only be used once anyway. This isn't the only talent that had that kind of change.
Changing these to simple actions doesn't mean they could now be used a whole bunch of times in a round. So, a line was put in about that, but not all of the talents were sufficiently reviewed to make sure they worked in that framework. (It was late in the process, and at that point I really just wanted to get the book done and out.)
Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:57 pm
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Each circle can only repel one breach attempt per round. This is why multiple undead/entities can overwhelm them. If you have nested circles and stay in the center, you get multiple layers of protection. For example:
I have two nested circles in place (successfully cast a couple rounds apart, but the minutes+ duration allows then to both be active at once). Two ghouls are attacking. The first one hits the outer circle, I make the Spellcasting test as indicated in the spell and succeed. The ghoul is driven back, and takes WIL+2 damage. I may use Willforce to enhance this effect test. The next ghoul takes its action. It passes the outer circe no problem (as it has repelled one target), but hits the inner circle. Another successful Spellcasting test, and it is repelled, also taking WIL+2 damage. I can also use Willforce on this effect test.
Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:01 am
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Mataxes wrote: ↑
Life Circle of One can have multiple instances, yes, but you cannot cast it more than once per turn (until Concise Casting at Circle 12 ... or Versatile ... the forever complicator). Not playing word games at all, the discussion was just about the restrictions of using Damage Replacement multiple times per round. Casting it once per round over multiple rounds so that multiple are present is still once per round, meaning you can safely use Willforce for each (since it's once per round). Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:25 am
Life Circle of One can have multiple instances at once with a little preparation (it's something called out specifically in the spell description -- nested circles as multiple lines of defense). After all, it has a duration of at least one minute, so you can have one active while another is being cast. I'm down with the idea that Damage Replacement Talents bypass the "once per turn" restriction, but as etherial opened this thread with, that isn't expressed in the rules. Do you think this is errata material, or just a "tables should feel free to allow it multiple times per round to avoid bookkeeping" opinion?
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:15 am
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As far as damage replacement talents, they can be used whenever appropriate. (Basically, they ignore the once-per-round rule.) That's the way I've always played them and think the restriction adds unnecessary bookkeeping to combat (in terms of keeping track of what has/hasn't been used in a given round) without adding anything useful I can see.
Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:25 am
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My comment about the reigning things in was more focused on the Strain involved. Close/Ranged combatants tend to have far more health available to pour into Strain. So, if a damage replacement can be used multiple times per round, then Close/Ranged combatants can, by the numbers, use it more times than a Spell combatant. And I'm not talking just "I use it til I pass out," I mean more "I use it until I'm not comfortable with the closeness to my Unconsciousness Rating."
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:53 pm
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The Undying wrote: ↑
Sort of. Willforce explicitly lets you use it multiple times in a round, but only for a single spell and only when rolled simultaneously. What happens if you have two Life Circles of One? Do you only get to roll Willforce on one Life Circle per round?Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:14 pm
Restricting damage replacements to once per round is interesting. It helps reign in some of the damage differential between Spell and Close/Ranged combat, since the latter can't just keep throwing extra damage on the fire with extra attacks. It also encourages players to spread that LP to multiple damage replacement Talents so that they can use multiple per round (if they even have multiple available), which also lowers the extra damage (since advancement is spread out a bit rather than dumped into one).Statistics:Posted by etherial — Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:32 pm
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Restricting damage replacements to once per round is interesting. It helps reign in some of the damage differential between Spell and Close/Ranged combat, since the latter can't just keep throwing extra damage on the fire with extra attacks. It also encourages players to spread that LP to multiple damage replacement Talents so that they can use multiple per round (if they even have multiple available), which also lowers the extra damage (since advancement is spread out a bit rather than dumped into one).
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:14 pm
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ChrisDDickey wrote: ↑
or Air Dance+Unarmed CombatTue Sep 26, 2017 3:19 pm
The question is can Claw Frenzy be used with Unarmed Combat, Swift Kick, and Second Attack all at the same time, or does the Claw Shape increase damage only for one of the attacks, but because Claw Shape can only be used once per round the others use normal unarmed damage. Ooh. Momentum Attack actually has rules that say you can't assume you get to use the Damage Replacement effect but specifically lets you use the Damage Replacement effect again.
or Shield Bash...ChrisDDickey wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:19 pmThe same situation applies with all other damage replacements such as Surprise Strike, Down Strike Etc. If a character with surprise strike gets multiple attacks against a knocked down opponent, to they all get the Surprise Strike bonus?
Statistics:Posted by etherial — Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:25 pm
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I would say the same might be true for Charge and Double Charge. Double Charge might be modifying the usage of Charge.
The question is can Claw Frenzy be used with Unarmed Combat, Swift Kick, and Second Attack all at the same time, or does the Claw Shape increase damage only for one of the attacks, but because Claw Shape can only be used once per round the others use normal unarmed damage.
The same situation applies with all other damage replacements such as Surprise Strike, Down Strike Etc. If a character with surprise strike gets multiple attacks against a knocked down opponent, to they all get the Surprise Strike bonus?
Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:19 pm
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