Josh is correct and I updated the errata document accordingly. It can be viewed as stronger than Shield Bash at low Circles, but then that starts to change at higher Circles. Shield Bash gains access to the Shield Drive knack, and can benefit from Waterfall Slam in addition to follow-up attacks with Momentum Attack, Second Attack, etc. Which are arguably more powerful because you can immediately capitalize on your now knocked down opponent.
Having spells that remain relevant over the course of a career means sometimes things aren't perfectly equivalent at all times. It also represents a risk v. reward. This payoff is good, but isn't guaranteed and the caster probably isn't in a position to exploit the advantage they created, while penalties associated with other spells are part of the effect. This includes situations where due to shifting initiative, the target may jump up without suffering an attack.
Where Invoke Leopard's Pounce is intended to shine is against flying opponents and those who aren't as physically robust. Against targets with high Knockdown, it's not nearly as useful. Comparing it to the Elemental Spear series neglects the versatility of having up to five different effects on hand when spell matrices are limited. The odds of having something appropriate for the situation, if not ideal, is very good. And one of them is an in-combat healing effect.
So, it's a very good spell in the right situations, but still represents an opportunity cost. In other situations, it's probably just damage that doesn't take the caster out of harm's way very well. It does promote teamwork and that's a good thing.
Best regards,
Morgan
Statistics:Posted by Panda — Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:25 am
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Yes, it gets +2 on the Effect test compared to Mind Dagger. However, Mind Dagger has +10y range, goes against Mystic Armor, not Physical, and has a guaranteed side effect of -2 PD for 2 rounds, as opposed to the possibility of a Knockdown.
I'll keep my Mind Dagger, thank you.
Statistics:Posted by ottdmk — Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:16 am
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Mataxes wrote: ↑
The result of the Effect Test is reduced by armor, and that reduced result is both damage and Knockdown difficulty.
I would then use the description of Shield Bash:Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:41 am
The spell is basically the "Shield Bash" talent (which is Novice-tier) with a 10-yard range.The result of the Effect Test is reduced by armor, and that reduced result is both damage and Knockdown difficulty.
But it's still far stronger than Shiel Bash: More range, more damage (Wil+4 is equivalent to Shield Bash in Rank 4 or Shield Bash+Karma), you can use it two times with an Enhanced Matrix and with willforce it gets even more powerful.The target of the spell makes a Knockdown test using the damage dealt as the Difficulty Number.
And as already noted: Stronger than any other spell.
Statistics:Posted by Belenus — Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:18 am
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The result of the Effect Test is reduced by armor, and that reduced result is both damage and Knockdown difficulty.
Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:41 am
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that said, even if armour reduces the effect test (which I don't see any indication that it would) I still think this spell would be rather stronger than it should be. knocked down is a very strong status effect.
Statistics:Posted by Sharkforce — Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:53 am
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The Effect test determines how much damage is inflicted and the Knockdown Difficulty the target must resist.
Clearly the Will Effect test is reduced by Physical armor for purposes of determining Direct Damage, but I can't find anywhere that it says the Will Effect is not reduced by Physical armor for all other purposes as well. I think a GM would be on moderately safe ground ruling that all aspects of the Will effect are reduced by the listed armor unless somebody can find a definitive rule otherwise. Is there one?Effect: WIL+4/Physical and causes Knockdown
Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:59 pm
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Belenus wrote: ↑
And with an Enhanced Matrix you can even target two enemies each round
Just as mentioned: Compared to other spells or similar effects, this spell is far to powerful.
yup. armour doesn't even help against it. I didn't want to quote too many details though, just enough to bring attention to why I was worried =SMon Mar 30, 2020 2:22 pm
Wow, it's even more powerful than read from your description.It's not just, that the spell forces a knockdown test against the damage taken, NO, it is against the effect test itself (and therefor both increased through extra successes..), so even more powerful than Shield BashThe Effect test determines how much damage is inflicted and the Knockdown Difficulty the target must resist.
And with an Enhanced Matrix you can even target two enemies each round
Just as mentioned: Compared to other spells or similar effects, this spell is far to powerful.
good to know that it's not just me. I'd been looking at it for some time as I was making a character for the west marches campaign, and it just felt like the spell was much stronger than any of the other direct damage options I had seen available to magicians...
Statistics:Posted by Sharkforce — Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:29 pm
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The Effect test determines how much damage is inflicted and the Knockdown Difficulty the target must resist.
It's not just, that the spell forces a knockdown test against the damage taken, NO, it is against the effect test itself (and therefor both increased through extra successes..), so even more powerful than Shield Bash And with an Enhanced Matrix you can even target two enemies each round
Just as mentioned: Compared to other spells or similar effects, this spell is far to powerful.
Statistics:Posted by Belenus — Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:22 pm
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I personally think the spell should require a thread for what it does. Or at least require successes to trigger knockdown
Statistics:Posted by ragbasti — Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:09 am
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now, that isn't completely insane; if it were to, say, lose out on the damage scaling with extra successes or required 1 thread, I would think it was a pretty strong spell, perhaps on the high end of what I would think is reasonable for a first circle spell even but not unreasonable; knockdown is a powerful effect, but it isn't guaranteed like the penalties that come from earth darts for example... although it isn't extremely unlikely to work, either.
but it's just that little bit extra that makes me look at it and feel like it's just a touch beyond what is reasonable. I don't get the impression that devastating direct damage spells is supposed to be the Shaman's niche (if anything, I'd guess their niche is supposed to be party-wide buffs). so it feels really odd to me that they would have a direct damage option that is so strong compared to other first circle options (including their own other first circle direct damage option, which also applies a strong debuff with 0 threads required but has no damage scaling from extra successes, and which i also consider to be on the high end of reasonable for first circle).
in fact, when I compare it to, say, the Elementalist spell Elemental Spear (Earth), it looks remarkably similar to me, except that the spear is 3 circles higher, requires a thread, and has longer range (though admittedly it also can share its matrix with the other Elemental Spear spells, which ranges from being worth nothing to being potentially a free extra spell prepared depending on whether the Elementalist was going to keep one of the spear spells regardless). likewise it looks similar to Astral Spear, a first circle Nethermancer spell with similar damage but requires a thread (though Astral Spear also has a *much* longer range),
Is it possible that somewhere in the mix of re-editing things some wires got crossed? perhaps it was supposed to be 1 thread like astral spear, or the extra success levels are only supposed to make the knockdown harder to resist? or is it just that the chance for knockdown is not as good as my instincts are telling me it is, and the spell is not overtuned at all?
Statistics:Posted by Sharkforce — Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:51 am
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