[ED4] Sprint

Discussion on the Earthdawn game line, errata, and feedback not related to playing or GMing.
Fusilliban
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:11 pm

[ED4] Sprint

Postby Fusilliban » Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:22 pm

Sprint seems to be the worst way to boost one's movement rate. Is this just me? I was thinking it was under-par, especially when compared to Quicken Pace, but then I saw the Seven League Boots. And 1 thread rank is supposed to equal a 1-step bonus, but the Boots give +2 base move rate for 1 rank, which is like 2 ranks of the nonexistent talent "Sprint but without strain cost".

It doesn't seem right that someone who spends a talent slot on a thing should get a more expensive and worse version than a Journeyman thread item or a Wizard 2 spell that lasts for hours.

I feel like this was done because making Sprint cost 0 strain was a problem, and also because kiting archer types were problematic. But Quicken Pace (and a bunch of other higher-circle spells) can boost move by +6 (or just set it to 20) at 5th Circle, and that seems to just totally trump the existence of Sprint. (And also re-enable kiting archers, for cheaper than before. Also Archers don't even get Sprint any more.)

If you doubled the bonus from Sprint, that would help, but it's still expensive compared to other stuff. You could add some sort of "any round in which you're sprinting, you get a bonus to phys def/avoid blow/etc because you're moving so fast," but that seems like a duplication of what Maneuver and/or Cobra Strike are for. Also, D&D Scouts sort of taught us what happens when you give a class bonuses only in rounds in which they cover a lot of ground.

Am I missing something? I am really enjoying ED4, and in the scheme of things this is pretty minor, but I was wondering if there's reasoning behind this that I don't know about.

Baravakar
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Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: [ED4] Sprint

Postby Baravakar » Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:29 am

I have never been a fan of sprint. The rules did not change much between ED3 and ED4. They did remove some of the limitations making it slightly better. But since they changed how the movement rates are listed, technically it did get nerfed because the standard movement rates in ED3 were 1 point = 2 yards. ED4 movement rates are 1 point = 1 yard. So the bonus for sprint was worth more in ED3.

No disciplines are required to take Sprint. Oddly only one can take it at First Circle (Thief), for the others it is a Journeyman option. So not only is it under-powered but it is expensive to buy/raise.

As for the Wizard Spell: Quicken Pace and the Thread Item: Seven League Striders, not everyone will have access to these.

I agree with you that this talent needs some love. I don't think anyone will take it for their characters, and if it is not worth taking it should not be in the rules.

The other movement enhancing talents are: Gliding Stride & Great Leap.
Both of these talent also have defensive uses. (Gliding Stride can be activated when falling, Great Leap can be used to avoid hazards)

    Gliding Stride has no upper limit on the movement rate. The test result replaces the standard movement rate. If the test result is 50, the movement rate that turn is 50. This is better then any other way to fly.

    Great Leap is capped at the standard movement rate (not exceeding his Movement Rate in either direction)
Sprint is a 1 for 1 movement increase and no defensive bonus. meh.

I think sprint should be a test which adds to the characters movement rate. This would put it on par with Gliding Stride. I'm not sure how that test would be determined without making it way overpowered, like Gliding Stride is.

Gkeckley
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Location: Tampa, FL

Re: [ED4] Sprint

Postby Gkeckley » Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:41 am

I thought gliding stride max on any distance was your movement rate but there is nothing in the text that states this. I must be remembering a previous edition. I think though it would be a good limiter to keep the talent in check.

Fusilliban
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Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:11 pm

Re: [ED4] Sprint

Postby Fusilliban » Sat Mar 26, 2016 12:28 pm

The Gliding Stride description doesn't say it's capped by your movement rate, but the inline example does:
Maloren, a dwarf Elementalist, has a Movement Rate of 10 yards ... It costs him his Standard action to increase his movement rate to cover the 14 yards horizontal gliding ...

Suggests clear intent on the part of the designers even if the presentation is less than convenient. There's also a line in Anatomy of a Discipline which suggest that Sprint and Gliding Stride are effective when combined.

Baravakar wrote:As for the Wizard Spell: Quicken Pace and the Thread Item: Seven League Striders, not everyone will have access to these.


Absolutely, but neither of them are so obscure/rare that they should be so dramatically more effective than a Talent which costs strain every round and does nothing other than increase move. If it's expensive, and it does only one thing, it should probably be plus or minus the best at that one thing that it does.

Gkeckley
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:16 am
Location: Tampa, FL

Re: [ED4] Sprint

Postby Gkeckley » Sat Mar 26, 2016 12:54 pm

Did not notice that in the example. So it looks like it got dropped from the description, probably in the editing phase, of the talent and should indicate the limit is your move rate.

Baravakar
Posts: 383
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:12 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: [ED4] Sprint

Postby Baravakar » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:38 pm

I think the best way to solve the dilemma for Sprint would be to just have it be a permanent increase to the character's movement rate with no strain cost.

A human's movement rate is 12. Sprint (Rank 15) would make this 27.
A riding horse's movement rate is 20 (GMG) using Razan's chart its 37.

Even at his fastest speed a magically sprinting human could not outpace the horse.
Use Animal Training to give the horse Sprint and the effect is even more magnified.

This would also let it combine with other movement enhancing effects. (like the boots)

Fusilliban
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:11 pm

Re: [ED4] Sprint

Postby Fusilliban » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:52 pm

Yeah, I don't know about that.

On the one hand, making Sprint have no strain cost makes it a competitive option against the other move-boosters, which is nice. On the other hand, it makes the kiting-archer problem *really intense* for those Archers that pick up Sprint through Versatility (it's a great Versatility talent, since you never need to spend Karma on it) or through a second Discipline. On the other other hand, an Archer that picks up Wizard 2 can grant themselves +4 move forever, and +3 to all attacks most of the time, so maybe it's just a question of how cheaply they can do this.

Though if it doesn't cost strain, and just increases your movement rate forever, then it's not really Sprint, it's Marathon. So, I dunno.

There's also a bit of a limiting factor here in that most gaming tables I've sat at in my life only have room for so many spaces on their battlemat, and once your move rate is "I cover most of the map in a round or two", you run into logistical concerns.

Game design is hard.

Telarus_KSC
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Re: [ED4] Sprint

Postby Telarus_KSC » Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:17 pm

Having scanned through the rules, it seems that at this point Sprint is used to increase Movement rate in order to have a synergistic effect with a bunch of other Talents; Stealthy Stride, Graceful Exit, Gliding Stride, Great Leap, Tracking (to "run" while still obscuring your tracks), etc.

I don't really want to track that Strain every round either. I'm going with a Duration of Rank x 10 Minutes. That will allow players to use it during site exploration or overland travel without Straining themselves Unconscious, but leaves room for the spell and item for long-term bonuses without Strain.

Baravakar
Posts: 383
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:12 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: [ED4] Sprint

Postby Baravakar » Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:17 pm

The issue seems to be that as written, Sprint is not worth taking. It should give a benefit that is.

There are three movement rate boosting talents. Two of which seem to be capped at the character's standard movement rate, so technically they don't increase movement at all.

I agree that my proposal does not match name.

Maybe if there was a test involved and the number of successes would add to the character's movement rate (for the round), short term speed increase aka Sprint.

If there is a duration for this effect, short term boost (rank rounds) then maybe strain can come back in. You then add a talent knack to switch it from rank rounds to rank minutes. #Marathon knack

There is always an issue with a character running out of combat and attacking, this would increase the issue but it exists already. Make it a windling archer and if can fly above at short range for the weapon and there are very few attacks that can reach him/her.

Fusilliban
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:11 pm

Re: [ED4] Sprint

Postby Fusilliban » Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:34 pm

Great Leap and Gliding Stride aren't movement-boosting talents. They're awesome-boosting talents. I mean, this is some Gliding Stride shenanigans right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGq6FXcpxtY&t=58s

Also, now I want a Gliding Stride 9 talent knack that says you can spend 2 strain to stay in midair at the end of a round as long as you have something to smack with your sword to gain more airtime. (GS 13 - 4 strain for a cloud. Yeahhhh.)


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