[Ed4] Player's Guide Feedback

Discussion on the Earthdawn game line, errata, and feedback not related to playing or GMing.
freid78
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:12 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: [Ed4] Player's Guide Feedback

Postby freid78 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:41 pm

Fine, Blood Pebble doesn't look like this. Still, the description is pretty clear. You infuse the skin with small elemental stone (p.413), hundreds of them! It cannot be such restrictive that you can't even put a Padded Cloth on it. Comon...

About cloaks, it's not silly when you have the right questions. If you can put a cloak with an armor, nothing should stop you from puting an enchanted one. And like any magical items in ED, you don't need it in front of you to make it work. A magical brooch can easily be hidden under your clothes, and still get you the benefits (going back on older editions of course, magical items are not out yet in the 4th).

And finally, because you push me around, I did go on the internet to check what historically was going on with armor stacking. Chainmail was usually mixed with a coat of leather (for added protection, but also to protect the degradation of the armor in combat. The leather effectively protected the abuse a naked chainmail could suffer). But you get other realistic combinations like having a leather coat under a ring mail just to hold the rings (this is not historical, historians mostly agrees that ring armors are a fantasy, they should probably be called Ring armors too, because it's not a "mail").

Having 50kg of armor might be rough for you, a human of 14 str (and i'm probably generous), but for someone with 18str (like a warrior in ED for example) , it's way easier. And nothing like true air embeded in the armor to reduce heat. Why not push even more to make it weight less?

If you have a thread that already answers the questions, you should probably post the link instead of guessing it is the case. It doesn't help anyone.

Telarus_KSC
Posts: 744
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:26 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: [Ed4] Player's Guide Feedback

Postby Telarus_KSC » Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:54 pm

I'll have to take a look at your other thread for the specifics there. I think the key is to see that in the stock armor rules, the Phys7 Chainmail armor rating includes those under layers of leather or padding. See the descriptions for padded leather and padded cloth also. Thus the armor "ratings" are abstract categories, and different armors can be in the same "Phys Armor Rating" - like Hide Armor and Blood Pebble*. This is already pretty historical even across various tech levels and cultures that blend to make Barsaive.

*In my game, I rule that Living Armors need fresh air and sunlight, so no stacking stuff over them or the spirit of the armor gets depressed, leading to physical degredation.

freid78
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:12 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: [Ed4] Player's Guide Feedback

Postby freid78 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:55 pm

I would agree there Telarus. The only way to get out of the problem of armor stacking without changing the system is to state that the name of the armor is just fluff, that the armor value, stat wise, should always be what is stated. If the player want to stack or patch up an armor, the end result should have the stat of the generic table.

Now, leading from that, is there a sound mathematical system that explain the generic armor setup or it was mosty guessed? I'm asking because, for example, it seems impossible to get 12k silver for the crystal plate, considering the ringlet is only 500. Especially when you consider the gap between chainmail and plate armor. The numbers don't add up :( Perhaps i'm a poor economist :P

User avatar
Mataxes
Site Admin
Posts: 907
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:51 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: [Ed4] Player's Guide Feedback

Postby Mataxes » Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:40 pm

I think if you want to develop a set of house rules for layering/stacking armor, and a more complex, in-depth system for crafting weapons and armor... knock yourself out. I'm not into that sort of thing, myself (and I don't see us adding something like that to the official rules any time soon).

However.... I do like a little bit of crunch. I like a little bit of variety. Sure, the mechanical differences between a broad sword and a Scythan axe are minimal, but there's more to equipment lists than "here's your Step 2 weapon, here's your Step 3 weapon," etc. In addition to providing a game system, we're also filling in the setting, and having some variety in the equipment lists (for example) can do that.

The problem that I often see with more complex systems is the desire for some people, through system mastery and number crunching, to 'optimize' things and find the one build to rule them all. This can result in cookie-cutter character design, and a potential for players feeling like they are holding themselves back by using something that fits the character, but is less than optimal.

For example, I had a Warrior that I played in a game a few years back that, due to his upbringing and backstory, fought with a quarterstaff (which at the time was Damage Step 2). A more numbers oriented player might question my intelligence at this choice, as it is not the best choice of weapon if you are looking to cause lots of damage. (Which I must have wanted, since I was playing a Warrior, right?)

There were story-based and character-based reasons for the choice, though, and it resulted in a fun and engaging character arc, which (at least in my opinion) would have been the lesser for a more 'optimal' choice from a numbers perspective.

(Incidentally, the restrictions in ED1 on forged weapon bonuses, and how that interacted with the quarterstaff in particular ended up influencing the work I did in ED Classic, and that subsequently informed the new version of Forge in ED4.)

Again, don't let me dissuade you from doing stuff at your table that you find cool, or that enhances your experience.

I'm a middling-crunch kind of player myself, and am not personally fond of games with a more highly granulated system of bonuses and penalties that only apply in certain cases or to certain kinds of damage. (I am having flashbacks to the old AD&D First Edition Player's Handbook, with the chart of different attack modifiers for each weapon vs different armor classes, along with different damage ranges for small/medium and large opponents.)
Josh Harrison --
Troubadour and Magic Theorist
Line Developer: Earthdawn

Razan_GM
Posts: 219
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:19 pm
Location: Warsav, Poland.
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: [Ed4] Player's Guide Feedback

Postby Razan_GM » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:17 pm

I see I got this discussion going. Thats what i wanted :) Nothing like a friendly kick in the butt :P

I remember Crystals of Time rpg that made AD&D First Edition mechanics look simple :)

For all those armors in ED I just take they all got some leather or cloth padding (or are that padding). And yes if my players wanted to combine some armors i would let them (chain with plate mail that would be +2 to plate armor and -2 Initiative, no swimming or climbing in it ofc, but definately they would be able to do a shoulder-roll).

The problem comes with totally magical armors like Blood Peeble as there are no physical laws that can be used to explain why it stops blows. But because we got magic we can explain that Blood Peeble doesnt stack with other armors because magic of that item doesnt work that way. Maybe it generates field of mystic force to stop blows and anything that is thick as armor stops its efficiency.

Its all about balance between armor and weapon damage. As its ok for chainmail to have armor 7 because normal human will get strenght step 5+5 sword = 10 mostly will only leave bruise (chainmails are great against swords slashing hits), but the same human will do nothing to plate mail (some indent will be made but nothing more, i've seen it alot in my over 10 years of historical reenacting). But we are forgetting that fantasy rpg are not realistic, maybe in ed plate mails are not that good (reasons may be so many).

Economy in fantasy games is a fiction. But as you realise that Crystal Ring mails are made of many small pieces of crystals, and Crystal Plate Mail needs really big pieces and thats why it cost so much, big crystal pieces are very rare and valuable, so entire set of them used to make Plate armor, well....

Some things to know about weapons vs armor in RL:
-blunt weapon against chainmail (with padding ofc) means armor is fine but you got broken ribs, it gives almost no protection, an axe will hurt even if it won't cut chainmail (from the same reasons as blunt weapon)
-knight in Plate armor even lying on the ground was safe from most attacks (exept weapons especcialy made to pierce it), to kill him you needed dagger and stab him between plates, many fighting technics relied on knocking him over and using dagger.

for more info http://www.medievalwarfare.info/weapons.htm

freid78
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:12 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: [Ed4] Player's Guide Feedback

Postby freid78 » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:59 pm

On the damage type, this has been moved to viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1557
I'll make another entry in a couple of hours with a refine system.

On another subject, Armor Mount gives physical armor to mount. Was it intentionnal to leave the Mystic armor behind ? If a cavalryman want to buff the spell defense of his mount by adding armor, could he use armor mount for that. Something like either all physical, all mystic or splitting between the two.

Thanks in advance for the reply!

User avatar
Mataxes
Site Admin
Posts: 907
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:51 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: [Ed4] Player's Guide Feedback

Postby Mataxes » Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:33 pm

Re: Mystic Armor enhancement for mounts

Enhance Animal Companion (available to Cavalryman adepts at C3) allows increases to Mystic Armor, so there is some intention to keep the two from overlapping.

It's possible that an Armor Mount knack could allow for Mystic Armor enhancement (knacks are still in development so it's hard to say for certain). And there is always the possibility of thread items that enhance Mystic Armor.
Josh Harrison --
Troubadour and Magic Theorist
Line Developer: Earthdawn

freid78
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:12 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: [Ed4] Player's Guide Feedback

Postby freid78 » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:19 pm


User avatar
Mataxes
Site Admin
Posts: 907
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:51 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: [Ed4] Player's Guide Feedback

Postby Mataxes » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:45 pm

So it does. (Teach me to not actually *read* the whole description. I just checked to make sure Mystic Armor was part of it.)

This is a legacy from prior editions. Looking back, ED1 had the talent as a high-circle option, and didn't specify Physical or Mystic. ED3 made it lower circle, but specified Physical Armor only, and the ED4 Armor Mount talent was built off of that so it kept the same restriction.

Enhance Animal Companion, on the other hand, was created from scratch and didn't have any real legacy issues to deal with. As it was originally designed to be a Beastmaster talent (who didn't get access to Armor Mount) to... well... enhance their animal companions, it made sense to make Physical Armor an option for that talent.

I don't have an inherent problem with using Armor Mount to boost Mystic Armor if you want to do that. It's not RAW (rules as written), but *shrug* it's your game. The two talents work differently enough (one is a lower, but longer-term boost, while the other is more short-term) that I don't think there's any real conflict there.
Josh Harrison --
Troubadour and Magic Theorist
Line Developer: Earthdawn

freid78
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:12 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: [Ed4] Player's Guide Feedback

Postby freid78 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:57 am



[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Return to “Product Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests