The Threadweaving tax

Discussion on game mastering Earthdawn. May contain spoilers; caution is recommended!
The Undying
Posts: 95
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:10 am

The Threadweaving tax

Postby The Undying » Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:54 am

-Edited to show my current proposal, AUG 23 1000 Eastern-

My current idea is Talent Knacks focused on growing proficiency with early spells. In the last Circle of the tier, the idea is that the Adept is well versed in the spells of that tier. This is amplified for previous tier spells. With a tier-limiter on each Knack, it increases overall cost (one of my primary concerns), reduces per-Knack impact, and fills that missing sense of growth for magicians. Master-level spells are never affected: these are the things of legends and should never be simple. I feel the results are well-costed, flavorful, risky enough to be interesting, and sufficiently simple to be straightforward in application.

----
Name: Advanced Threadweaving, Novice
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 4, Magician-only
Strain: 1
Description: Immediately before a Spellcasting test, the Adept may make a Simple Action Threadweaving test. This test can achieve up to 1 (one) success. If the declared number of threads are not completed after this test, the spell is lost in a violent eruption of astral energy. All woven threads are lost, the magician forfeits their Standard Action, and the magician takes an 1 (one) Damage. This test can only be made for Novice-tier spells. This Knack must be purchased for each Threadweaving talent individually.
----
Name: Advanced Threadweaving, Journeyman
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 8, Magician-only
Strain: 1
Description: Same as "Advanced Threadweaving, Novice", but replace "Novice-tier" with "Journeyman-tier".
----
Name: Advanced Threadweaving, Warden
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 12, Magician-only
Strain: 1
Description: Same as "Advanced Threadweaving, Novice", but replace "Novice-tier" with "Warden-tier".
----
Name: Superior Threadweaving, Novice
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 7, Magician-only
Strain: 2
Description: Same as "Advanced Threadweaving, Novice", but the test can now achieve up to 2 (two) successes while threadweaving completion failure results in 2 (two) Damage.
----
Name: Superior Threadweaving, Journeyman
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 11, Magician-only
Strain: 2
Description: Same as "Superior Threadweaving, Novice", but replace "Novice-tier" with "Journeyman-tier".
----
Name: Superior Threadweaving, Warden
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 13, Magician-only
Strain: 2
Description: Same as "Superior Threadweaving, Novice", but replace "Novice-tier" with "Warden-tier".
----
Name: Epic Threadweaving, Novice
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 10, Magician-only
Strain: 3
Description: Same as "Advanced Threadweaving, Novice", but the test can now achieve up to 3 (three) successes while threadweaving completion failure results in 3 (three) Damage.
----
Name: Epic Threadweaving, Journeyman
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 14, Magician-only
Strain: 3
Description: Same as in "Epic Threadweaving, Novice", but replace "Novice-tier" with "Journeyman-tier".
----
Name: Epic Threadweaving, Warden
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 15, Magician-only
Strain: 3
Description: Same as in "Epic Threadweaving, Novice", but replace "Novice-tier" with "Warden-tier".
----


I *LOVE* the general flavor and intent of the optional thread system introduced to spell casting in ED4. It adds longevity to lower Circle spells through improved effects and flexibility, making spellcasting much more interesting and dynamic. This is a very good thing.

What I *DO NOT* like about the system is the general tax that comes along with it. The flexibility and scalability of the system forces casting into two turns - Threadweaving, then Spellcasting - for all but a distinct minority case (0-thread spells placed in an Enhanced Matrix with a single extra thread). As Disciplines involved in close/ranged combat evolve, they gain access to Talents that improve their to-hit or damage, culminating with a second attack at ~Circle 8. Magicians get ... to halve their output thanks to the additional standard action, and maybe take a bunch of strain to hold a spell ~Circle 8 for a once-per-combat payoff when planning time is available.

In my opinion, something needs to be added to allow magicians to feel more powerful in line with their close/range combat counterparts, rather than feeling like their lives are just becoming more burdensome. Whatever the solution, it needs to be simple while being sufficiently expensive.

The best solution I can think of is a Talent Knack. In its simplest form, it would be something like the following:

-----
Name: Journeyman Casting
Cost and Availability: Threadweaving 5, Magician-only
Strain: 1
Description: The magician can incorporate the effects of one (1) extra thread when matrix casting a spell without weaving that thread. The spell must be placed in a Spell Matrix with an additional two (2) ranks above the Circle of the spell to gain the knack effect. This knack must be learned separately for each Threadweaving Talent. The effects of this knack cannot be used for non-extra threads. The effect chosen counts against the maximum number of extra threads the magician may weave for their Discipline's Circle. The Strain cost is paid for each Spellcasting test in which this Knack is used. The Adept may chose not to use this Knack when casting a spell, in which case there is no additional Strain caused by the Knack.
Example: Eristed is a Circle 5 Elemenalist with the Circle 3 'Ice Mace & Chain' spell and this Knack for his Threaadweaving (Elementalism) Talent. The spell is placed in his Bonus 'Standard Matrix' Talent, which is Rank 5. As a result, Eristed may cast this 0-thread spell with one extra thread effect without performing a Threadweaving (Elementalism) test. As a Journeyman, Eristed may still incorporate one (1) additional extra thread when casting the spell, but that extra thread must be woven as usual, requiring a Threadweaving (Elementalism) test.
-----
Name: Warden Casting
Strain: 2
Cost and Availability: Threadweaving 9, Magician-only
Description: The magician can incorporate the effects of two (2) extra threads when matrix casting a spell without weaving that thread. The spell must be placed in a Spell Matrix with an additional four (4) ranks above the Circle of the spell to gain the knack effect. (All other Description elements of Journeyman Casting apply)
-----
Name: Master Casting
Strain: 3
Cost and Availability: Threadweaving 13, Magician-only
Description: The magician can incorporate the effects of three (3) extra threads when matrix casting a spell without weaving that thread. The spell must be placed in a Spell Matrix with an additional six (6) ranks above the Circle of the spell to gain the knack effect. (All other Description elements of Journeyman Casting apply)
-----

What do I like about this solution: (1) It's MOSTLY simple - you buy each Knack once per Threadweaving Talent, it scales similarly to the available maximum extra threads per Discipline, and once you unlock it, it's done. (2) Minimal housekeeping - players should likely annotate their spells in matrix somehow, e.g. "Ice Mace & Chain +" for Journeyman Casting, as a reminder why they have this Circle 3 spell in a Rank 5 matrix or that they have this Knack ability for that spell's Circle, but otherwise, no other special overhead. (3) The linear increasing strain for use makes sense, is in line with the layered strain cost for Talent use for close/range combat Disciplines, and keeps things from getting out of hand.

What do I dislike about the solution: (1) It's a little wordy, and the fact that the Strain cost is paid with a separate Talent than the one with which the Knack is learned is a little janky. (2) The effect's use of the available extra threads for that Discipline level is a bit wordy and janky, but it keeps things from spiralling out of control, e.g. 'Master Casting' a spell with three free effects and then four ADDITIONAL extra threads. (3) I'd prefer the resulting empowered spell to also have an increased Threadweaving difficulty, but that adds another level of complication, as well as additional math. (4) The scaling Matrix rank requirement is janky and means there's an upper threshold where each can be used, but it really feels necessary. (5) It feels a little cheap for the effect.

This solution aside, here are some other solutions I considered:

= New Talent Options. Honestly, **THIS** is the most elegant solution. 'Journeyman Casting' would be a Journeyman option, and so on. This has a better cost structure, would cut out the last two sentences of each knack (since you only use it when you want), and thanks to increased cost, I'd be comfortable getting rid of the janky scaling Matrix rank requirement described in the Knacks above. There are a couple problems here, though. (1) It would require a retcon to any existing ED4 games in progress, which would be a mess. (2) It increases the number of Talent Options for Magicians, making them a bit lopsided. (3) While I appreciate the idea that a player *COULD* opt not to take the additional Matrix at each new tier, I cannot imagine anyone who really would, and this becomes another necessary-feeling Talent 'Option', meaning that magicians effectively go from getting four 'options' to two.

= Learning 'Empowered' version of spells. E.g., you can learn 'Ice Mace & Chain' at Circle 3, and you can learn 'Ice Mace & Chain, +Effect(1)' at Circle 5, and so on. This is a bookkeeping nightmare. It's also a cost nightmare as every spell has to be relearned. The only benefit is that, since each spell has an elevated natural Circle, it naturally increases the Dispel difficulty of the 'empowered' variant without needing to lay on Tenacious Weave.

= Per-Rank Knacks. E.g., "Journeyman Casting, Circle 1", "Journeyman Casting, Circle 2", "Warden Casting, Circle 1", and so forth. This is basically a way of grafting a Talent-like option onto existing characters without the drawbacks listed above on the "New Talent Options" concept. It also carries with it an improved cost structure, meaning again, I'd be comfortable getting rid of the janky scaling Matrix rank requirement. However, this is another bookkeeping nightmare, albeit less nightmarish than the "Learning 'Empowered' version of spells" concept.

I'd curious what other people think, about this issue as a whole and possible resolutions, critiques of mine included. If you don't think this is an issue in the first place, I'd be interested in hearing your perspective.
Last edited by The Undying on Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

The Undying
Posts: 95
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Re: The Threadweaving tax

Postby The Undying » Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:13 am

Another option is a limited conversion of Threadweaving into a Simple Action.

-----
Name: Journeyman Threadweaving
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 5, Magician-only
Strain: 1
Description: As a Simple Action before Spellcasting, the Adept may make a Threadweaving test to weave up to one (1) thread for the subsequent Spellcasting test. Similar to normal Treadweaving, the player must declare the number of threads being woven and the associated effects for any extra threads. This Knack can be used after Standard Action Threadweaving tests in previous turns to complete necessary threads. Unlike a Standard Action Threadweaving test, however, if use of this Knack fails to achieve the necessary successes to accomplish all outstanding declared threads, then all currently woven threads are lost, the player forfeits the turn's Standard Action in which the Spellcasting was planned, and the Adept takes an additional one (1) strain due to the violent unraveling of the spell pattern. This Knack must be purchased individually for each Threadweaving Talent.
-----
Name: Warden Threadweaving
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 9, Magician-only
Strain: 2
Description: As above, but replace all instances of "one (1)" with "two (2)".
-----
Name: Master Threadweaving
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 13, Magician-only
Strain: 3
Description: As above, but replace all instances of "one (1)" with "three (3)".
-----

Pros: Even more simple. More flavor. Greater risk to offset some of the simplicity.

Cons: Still feels a bit cheap. Also, since restricting this to extra threads felt janky (since it can occur in addition to Standard Action Threadweaving), it opens the door to eventually casting spells with multiple base threads in a single turn, which MAY be an issue.

Things could be further simplified for the open-minded, a la:

-----
Name: Journeyman Combatweaving
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 5, Magician-only
Strain: 1
Description: Threadweaving can be performed as a Simple Action. Up to one (1) thread can be woven per use of this knack. This Knack must be purchased for each Threadweaving Talent individually.
-----
Name: Warden Combatweaving
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 9, Magician-only
Strain: 2
Description: As above, but replace all instances of "one (1)" with "two (2)".
-----
Name: Master Combatweaving
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 13, Magician-only
Strain: 3
Description: As above, but replace all instances of "one (1)" with "three (3)".
-----

Simple, elegant, relies on the rule stipulation that a Talent can only be used once per turn (so no Standard Action weaving, plus each knack for insane one turn weaving). Downside is it REALLY opens up the space since Simple Actions can be stacked on top of tons of Standard Actions, and STILL feels to cheap, perhaps more so.

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etherial
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Re: The Threadweaving tax

Postby etherial » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:06 am

Isn't part of the flexibility the fact that tying extra Threads is optional?

The Undying
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Re: The Threadweaving tax

Postby The Undying » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:03 am

In my opinion, it's optional in the way that a new home owner can start with a basic wrench but eventually have to get an adjustable, a pipe, and maybe a water wrench.

Here's a good example. A Circle 3 Warrior has a close combat roll of maybe Step 10 and a weapon with +3 damage from forging for about say Step 14. A Circle 3 Elementalist has a Spellcasting roll of maybe rank 10 and an effect Step 9 for IM&C. Extra successes on the close combat test for the Warrior guarantees extra damage step, while extra successes on the Spellcasting roll is often something other than damage. So far, no big deal, and the interesting spell effects of the spell offset the damage difference.

Now, move forward in time. A Circle 8 Warrior can potentially land three close combat attacks in a single turn: Melee Weapon, Momentum Strike, and Second Attack, each of them for about Step 15 if invested in all of them. Thanks to weapon forging, which requires money but no strain, the base damage step is likely up to Step 19. For strain, both Spot Armor Flaw and Crushing Blow can increase this damage to say Step 31 per damage test. So, again, we are at 3 attacks per turn at Step 31 damage.

Meanwhile, if we bump the Circle 8 Elementalist up to an Enchanced Matrix with an Elemental Spear, we are bumped up to ... A single spellcasting attack of Step 15 with an effect step of 11. ... Yeeeaaaah. Willforce can bump that effect to Step 19, but that's it. There's no way to throw money at the problem like you can in forging. Some spells HELP offset the differential but not enough. For example, Fireball could hit multiple people - IF they're grouped without an ally in the bunch, otherwise you still need that extra thread to remove targets.

The only way the Elementalist can bump their effect Step is to sacrifice an additional turn. With an average Threadweaving roll, they can likely pull of two successes, which in this case gives them two extra threads, which for Elemental Spear gives them ... +4 effect step. The Elementalist traded a full turn for +4 damage, reducing their pure-turn damage output from Step 19 to Step 12 (23/2). Some of the extra thread options are interesting, but none so game changing to offset this turn loss. In the case of "+1 target" extra threads, this would mean they could hit three targets the following turn at Step 19, resulting in 1.5 attacks per turn at Step 19.

I'm okay with the ED4 design decision that combat damage should really be owned by close/ranged combat, but this level of discrepancy is personally unreasonable.

Utsukushi
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Re: The Threadweaving tax

Postby Utsukushi » Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:18 pm

My main thought here is that Spellcasters in general have been significantly revamped to emphasize the "support' aspect. Like you say, direct damage is owned by the direct-damage-dealers, because that is what they do. If you're going to be disappointed that your Elementalist can't hit as hard as the Warrior in a battle... then you're playing the wrong Discipline. If you want to play the best healer and probably third-best information-gatherer and the go-to-gal when the group gets lost in the Servos Jungle, that's when to play an Elementalist.

In combat, the Elementalist and Nethermancer, most particularly, contribute far more through their buffs and debuffs. And I don't just mean Air Armor and Fire Weapon, I mean, far more, the ones that are built in as "side effects" on their, indeed, lower damage combat spells. IM&C doesn't hit like a two-handed sword, but leaves the target Harried, helping set them up for, y'know, the Troll with the two-handed sword. Earth Darts does the same, lowering their Physical Defense -- I'm not totally clear on how, but I like that effect.

Nethermancers are a little more selfish, more building up a rolling-thunder effect, generally reducing their Mystic Defense to make it easier for the Nethermancer to keep effecting them -- but a Nethemancer/Elementalist team can seriously wipe out an opponent's defenses pretty quickly. At which point, indeed, it is nice to have a Swordmaster along for the coup de grace. (Or a Sky Raider to just, y'know, kill 'em, without all the fancy Theran.)

None of the casters shine in combat. Honestly, they never have. It's not where they're meant to shine.

The Undying
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Re: The Threadweaving tax

Postby The Undying » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:47 pm

Agreed on your point about damage output, Utsukushi. From an output perspective, comparing magicians to a Warrior is already pretty weighted since that's what Warriors do, hit and damage. However, while damage was an important element of my last post, that post was really about GROWTH. The Warrior (and other Disciplines) see steady and meaningful growth in their numbers both with LP and money investment. Meanwhile, the only growth magicians see are Willforce and extra threads, and because of the Threadweaving requirement for those extra threads, there's a significant cost factor imposed on that growth vector that non-magicians don't incur.

In my opinion, Threadweaving is the least fun aspect of being a magician when it comes to combat: sitting in the corner 50% of the time getting ready isn't fun, throwing a spell is fun. In that vein, adding in some knacks that tack on extra threads increases the fun factor, it shows meaningful power growth that is lacking in the Disciplines when compared to close/ranged combat Disciplines, and it's not so significant as to allow the magician to out-shine the close/ranged combat (with only a few possible exceptions).

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Spader
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Re: The Threadweaving tax

Postby Spader » Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:59 pm

In first edition, there was a knack based on Spellcasting called "Force Spellcasting". It allowed a mage to "skip" thread by paying 3 strains per thread.

The Undying
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Re: The Threadweaving tax

Postby The Undying » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:59 pm

Good to know, Spader, thanks. I can see how that would get weeded out: it makes sense from a growth perspective, it is super simple, but straight up skipping Threadweaving is a huge improvement and would be an even bigger issue in ED4 where a Warden magician could turn a 3 thread base spell into 6 threads total with their three extra.

Returning to Utsukushi's point, let's take a different example focused on the Elementalist's role as crowd control, using IM&C as the base given that it's the go-to spell for the Discipline.

-- Novice

Without any extra threads or side spells, the Elementalist is the 'that guy that Harries things' and is capable of rotating between two enemies to keep a continuous Harried (barring extra successes). The extra thread doesn't really buy him anything - because of the turn lost to Threadweaving, the Adept can still only keep a continuous Harried on two enemies (either '+1 target' to hit them both at once or '+2 duration' and alternate between the two).

-- Journeyman

Adding Earth Staff (which eats a Matrix or requires reattunement on-the-fly) but no Threadweaving, the Elementalist can now either rotate through four enemies to keep continuous Harried or rotate through two different spells on two enemies (if we're staying debuff-focused, IM&C, IM&C, Earth Darts, ED, repeat from top). Assuming average Threadweaving rolls, the Adept can likely weave two threads per turn on Novice spells, which is their two extra threads available at Journeyman for these 0-thread spells. Without adding Earth Staff but adding a Threadweaving turn, the Elementalist can only keep continuous Harried on three enemies OR rotate through two different spells on two enemies (assuming the main debuff support both '+1 target' and '+2 duration', bbut IM&C doesn't support the latter). Adding Earth Staff AND Threadweaving, the Elementalist can now rotate through two spells to maintain two continuous spells on four enemies, but that means we're at three spell matrices, one of which (probably the bonus Standard Matrix) is devoted to Chain Casting Earth Staff.

Wanna cast something every turn, not maintain Earth Staff, and still keep up a debuff? Well, you're boned. Your options are [a] Elemental Spear (Wood) in your bonus Enhanced Matrix to maintain harried, [b] Earth Darts or IM&C in your Enhanced Matrix with the free extra thread either spreading the love (IM&C only supports +1 target) or prolonging duration so you aren't casting the same spell over and over (Earth Darts supports +2 duration), [c] fireball while playing the geometry game to keep your friends out of the blast radius. Every other spell is either a buff or requires Threadweaving (Icy Surrface is one exception, but be prepared to hear wining from your close combat companions. Shattering Stone is another exception, but it trades persistent debuff for knockdown AND has the pesky requirement to have a fist-size rock on hand). Don't care about maintaining the debuff? You now have access to the other Elemental Spear spells.

-- Warden

Earth Staff but no Threadweaving test, **THERE IS NO CHANGE**. Assuming average Threadweaving rolls, the Adept can likely weave three threads per turn on Novice spells, which is their three extra threads available at Warden for these 0-thread spells. Threadweaving but no Earth Staff, the Adept can now keep continuous Harried on four enemies OR rotate through two different spells on three enemies. **THIS IS BASICALLY THE SAME AS JOURNEYMAN WITH ELEMENTAL STAFF.** Earth Staff and Threadweaving, the Elementalist can now rotate through two spells to maintain two continuous spells on six enemies, but we're still at three spell matrices. If the base debuff spell(s) support '+2 duration' extra thread, then options open up, allowing three continuous spells on four enemies, but now we're at four spell matrices.

Wanna cast something every turn, not maintain Earth Staff, and still keep up a debuff? Still boned, unless there are some interesting spells at this level. Don't care about maintaining the debuff? No change.

-- Master (Not gonna bother with this tier)

First, note that these are all with Elementalist, which has Earth Staff - the situation is much more bleak with the other Disciplines who don't have access. With both Threadweaving and Earth Staff, the Elementalist has some pretty impressive mass targeted control or can layer on multiple spells - assuming they've grabbed either the Talent Options or Thread Items for the extra matrices. Still, they're spending FIFTY PERCENT of their time doing a gut check - standing in the corner, doing a Threadweaving roll to check a box, which COULD FAIL, meaning they spend another turn standing in the corner, checking the box. More fail? Keep burning turns checking that box.

The Undying
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Re: The Threadweaving tax

Postby The Undying » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:03 pm

Upon more reflection, I think my primary problem isn't the numbers, just that it feels like spellcasting growth isn't very impressive when compared to the many nuances that close/range combat get.

On one hand, spells DO get easier as time goes on. Let's take Fingers of Wind as an example, the first 2+ thread Elementalist spell (aside from Shelter, whose difficulty is basically irrelevant). This has a Threadweaving difficulty of 6. By the time the magician reaches Warden, they should be able to pull this spell off completely with a single Threadweaving test regularly. However, this Circle 2 spell still forever requires a turn spent Threadweaving - with two base threads, Enhanced Matrix doesn't cut it. Worse, adding even a single extra thread makes single turn Threadweaving fairly unlikely.

Next, let's take the Circle 1 staple, Earth Darts. As a 0-thread spell, that Warden can now pull off a pretty impressive -5 Armor penalty with three extra threads. However, they have to sacrifice a turn to do it because of the now necessary Threadweaving test. If that Warden wants to cast the spell in a single turn, s/he is absolutely no better than a Novice casting it (or a Journeyman via Enhanced Matrix). The just seems sad ... really sad.

I really, REALLY, feel like lower Circle spells should have a way to get markedly easier, and thus impressive, as a magician advances. I think that's my real heartburn.

My current idea is Talent Knacks focused on growing proficiency with early spells. In the last Circle of the tier, the idea is that the Adept is well versed in the spells of that tier. This is amplified for previous tier spells. With a tier-limiter on each Knack, it increases overall cost (one of my primary concerns), reduces per-Knack impact, and fills that missing sense of growth for magicians. Master-level spells are never affected: these are the things of legends and should never be simple. I feel the results are well-costed, flavorful, risky enough to be interesting, and sufficiently simple to be straightforward in application.

----
Name: Advanced Threadweaving, Novice
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 4, Magician-only
Strain: 1
Description: Immediately before a Spellcasting test, the Adept may make a Simple Action Threadweaving test. This test can achieve up to 1 (one) success. If the declared number of threads are not completed after this test, the spell is lost in a violent eruption of astral energy. All woven threads are lost, the magician forfeits their Standard Action, and the magician takes an 1 (one) Damage. This test can only be made for Novice-tier spells. This Knack must be purchased for each Threadweaving talent individually.
----
Name: Advanced Threadweaving, Journeyman
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 8, Magician-only
Strain: 1
Description: Same as "Advanced Threadweaving, Novice", but replace "Novice-tier" with "Journeyman-tier".
----
Name: Advanced Threadweaving, Warden
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 12, Magician-only
Strain: 1
Description: Same as "Advanced Threadweaving, Novice", but replace "Novice-tier" with "Warden-tier".
----
Name: Superior Threadweaving, Novice
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 7, Magician-only
Strain: 2
Description: Same as "Advanced Threadweaving, Novice", but the test can now achieve up to 2 (two) successes while threadweaving completion failure results in 2 (two) Damage.
----
Name: Superior Threadweaving, Journeyman
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 11, Magician-only
Strain: 2
Description: Same as "Superior Threadweaving, Novice", but replace "Novice-tier" with "Journeyman-tier".
----
Name: Superior Threadweaving, Warden
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 13, Magician-only
Strain: 2
Description: Same as "Superior Threadweaving, Novice", but replace "Novice-tier" with "Warden-tier".
----
Name: Epic Threadweaving, Novice
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 10, Magician-only
Strain: 3
Description: Same as "Advanced Threadweaving, Novice", but the test can now achieve up to 3 (three) successes while threadweaving completion failure results in 3 (three) Damage.
----
Name: Epic Threadweaving, Journeyman
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 14, Magician-only
Strain: 3
Description: Same as in "Epic Threadweaving, Novice", but replace "Novice-tier" with "Journeyman-tier".
----
Name: Epic Threadweaving, Warden
Cost & Availability: Threadweaving 15, Magician-only
Strain: 3
Description: Same as in "Epic Threadweaving, Novice", but replace "Novice-tier" with "Warden-tier".
----

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etherial
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Re: The Threadweaving tax

Postby etherial » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:12 am

A houserule I sometimes used in previous editions, converted to ED4, would look like this:

A Magician may spend 2 Successes on a Thread Weaving Test to gain a Standard Action, usable only to Cast the Spell they were tying Threads for.


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