Combat Questions

[Telarus_KSC]

I've had some combat ideas in my head. As a GM I'd like to get outside opinions, but this is applicable for any player or gm who has Earthdawn experience.

Initiative has been on my mind. It's the "Please wait, Loading..." screen of tabletop combat.

There are some interesting systems that other games use (the cards in Savage worlds, and the emergent play in Reign/ORE games), and I also tinkered with a Bidding design... but I'm on to some other thoughts. These revovle around the idea of "taking/seizing the Initiative". Then I read , and it crystallized some of those ideas, thus the need for feedback.


1) I'd like to free up Movement from the strict Init order. What if you could let an ally unit take a Move Action on your turn for a -1 to your Init Result (& possibly a -1 Mov that turn) ? Would that be fun? They would start their move on your new Initiative, and finish it on that Init Count minus the # of hexes moved.

Suddenly, while everyone is staring at the Warrior Airdancing across the battlefield, the enemies' tactician notices that his troops have covered 1/3 of the ground themselves, and have brought their calvary to the flanks!! Another side to this, is if two characters are racing towards something (or chasing after each other), you can use the distance to the target in Hexes as a penalty to the Initative roll, having both characters moving at the same time.


2) I'd like to "take the Step" more often for NPCs, especially non-central characters, to speed up the "initiative crunch". As such, I realize that some of the randomness will go away. What if the character who "Wins Initiative" (rolls highest that round) sets all of their allies at the allies' Init Step +4? Would that be cool? Boom, roll Leader vs Leader (highest init vs highest), done. Move on to resolving the combat round.

The +4 trading back and forth will generally mix up the order enough to "feel random", I think... and this still encourages characters to buy Air Dance and Tiger Spring (many other ideas I had ran into trouble spots with those Talents).


3) I'd like to encourage collaborative play by the PCs. What if each character who has taken their Step (and with a +4 if their side 'Has the Initiative') can freely swap their Init with others? Another way to think of this is that each Init Result is a "slot" where one character can take a full Action. The PCs can collaborate on who goes where when, who's in or out of the AoE, etc. Conversely, the enemy Wizard can spend low Init slots threadweaving, and a more robust Init slot casting the spells.... if he's got minions to help him out.

Thank you for any feedback of these ideas in isolation or used together.

[Flowswithdrek]

Interesting ideas you have there, swapping initiative might work if your characters are leaders or command character, directing the actions of others. That’s one that needs play tested, it could even work within a small group if the players agree one of them is the groups leader..


I’ve been coming up with similar thougts lately for a game mechanic I’ve been thinking about. My basic idea was that one person or group wins initiative and gets a bonus to their first action rather than simply just going first, then everyone gets stuck in, then the damage is dished out. Also to encourage the players to actually ‘take the initiative’ I was thinking of a further bonus, too often I find the players wait to be attacked first. Not sure how even that would work in practice.

[slayride]

heh heh sounds like Savage Worlds. In Savage Worlds, they use a deck of playing cards to determine Initiative. If the player draws a Joker, they can act at any point in the round they want and gain a +2 Test and damage bonus. Then in order ace --->deuce with ties as spades > hearts > diamonds > clubs.

Its very Skirmish based, Player Character Game Master allies are controlled by the players as Extras. And the game has quite a number of Leadership style edges for this. The Tactician edge allows for them to draw cards from the deck before a fight, and then use them to replace an ally's Initiative card during any round they want.

Applying this to Earthdawn...Well you could start with a leadership character using the Tactics talent/skill/half-magic against the enemy. In addition to the normal effects, with each success achieved, you could then swap two initiatives of allies. So on an Average result, one swap, and up to four on an Extraordinary result. The person with the highest Initiative in a round could gain a +2 bonus to one action/damage on their turn as well.

[slayride]

As for my games, the Initiative is usually taking the step except for Air Dancing characters who must roll, half the characters take the step, others prefer rolling. The enemy types have changed too with a new category.

Standard enemy

Mook.
Takes a number of Wounds to bring down (1 or more) or goes KO.

Minion.
Does not take Strain damage, all strain costs are 0.
If the minion takes 1 damage point after armor is applied, they go down.

The newest category speeds up play by quite a bit, as usually any attack that lands from a Player Character is lethal or ko (attack to stun). And since they don't take strain, and I try not to use abilities that have strain, so no keeping track of damage for them.

Minions are essentially mobile terrain as Ted call's them, meant to harry and harass PCs but not generally a threat in and of themselves.

[slayride]

I've also been using playing cards for Initiative. Each character is given a suit of cards. Take your initiative or roll to get your result. Then take the card(s) out of your suit. Like 22 could be a king, queen, and a 2 flipped up. You place your card(s) face up at the start of the round, then flip it down after acting. Held, reserved actions are tapping the card sideways, magic style. Characters that have a secondary Air Dance attack get dealt a Joker that is used at the end of a round after everyone else has acted. Once all cards are face down, new Initiative turn. It works real easy with Game Master characters, simply take their Initiative Step and flip the same numbered card over and over, unless they gain penalties which will move the number down. The biggest thing is that they are easy for the Game Master to see, so you look at your cards and the players and see who goes first. For example my minion might have a 6 initiative, so I flip a 6 face up for him. If a minion is Harried they get a 4, Knocked Down a 3, so on. It might not seem fair that all the minions get punished for one penalty, but it is much easier than keeping track of them separately.

[Telarus_KSC]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I hear you on the Leadership/Tactics angle, this idea was obviously going to brush up against them in design space and that's a good opportunity for awesome to happen. Here's the thing, tho...

While that's perfect for GM Leaders w/ Mooks, and for Mooks controlled by the PCs... Tactics burns a character's action for a round. I wanted to set the Party apart as the focus of these mechanics. The players shouldn't have to consult more rolls just to use the mechanic, they should just get to. I can see some seriously cool Tactics knacks coming out of this, but I want to hammer out some good base rules.

So, let's re-frame the rules propositions with that presentation in mind.
In the below, I'm assuming that "groups of Mooks" are "one character", as per my Mass Combat system.



ROLLING INITIATIVE
In our proposed Skirmish System, each side* of a conflict rolls 1 Initiative Dice Pool as an Initative Test, with the winner "Taking the Initiative".
(*Sometimes the Party might have to split attention, meaning running two separate conflicts with 2 sides a piece, etc.. this should be rare and not really slow down play from the proposed system).

Players may freely choose who rolls for their side, on the assumption that the PCs are heroes who are watching each other's backs.
The GM will usually have an NPC picked to roll Initiative for the antagonists side, (often this won't even be a 'front line' character).
Everyone else's Initative Step is placed to the Initative Pool for their side, these values will be spent one per character as the round progresses.

The chosen Leaders now roll off, allowing for Talent/Karma use as normal.
The winner of this contested roll "has Taken the Initiative", and will declare an action to happen on that Initiative Count.
All of the scores in the Initiative Pool for the winning Leader's side get a +4 modifier.
The character who wins the Initative Test may also apply a +2 modifier to two separate Tests made that round (see below for other uses of the +2 bonuses).

**This is simple enough that the GM can line up Initiative Steps of the encounter well beforehand, and taking a +4 to either side in turn, can easily sort Init Steps to see how many actions each side gets before the other responds. See below for the complex cases.

SPENDING INITIATIVE
Each side may spend initiative, starting with the character who has won the Initiative Test (who must act on their rolled Initiative), then proceeding in any order desired.
The GM decides which character uses Init Scores from the NPCs pool (starting with the Leader who lost the Initiative Test, unless a different NPC "buys" a higher score - see below).
The Players decide which character uses which Init Score from their own pool in any order they wish, and are encouraged to discuss tactics briefly.
This open tactical discussion is to encourage PC collaboration (and allows the GM to react in kind with a bit of tactics).

The character with the current Initiative Score announces their action briefly (modifying their Result for Allied Movement or other mods, see below), and then resolved their turn.

ALLIED MOVEMENT
The current (not Interrupting or Aiding) character may also allow allied characters (Friendly or better) to Move on his or her turn by modifying his own Initiative Result.
For each point of Initiative spent, an allied character (Friendly or better) may move 2 Hexes (4 yds).
Characters moving outside their turn cannot take Standard Actions.
Movement for all these characters and the directing character's Action(s) happen on the new Initiative Result.

AIDING AND INTERRUPTING
If one or both sides have Initiative Steps in their pool above the winning Result (modified for allied Movement), a character on that that side may Aid or Interrupt the character who won the Initiative Test.
Interrupting Characters may prevent the acting characters from achieving their goal, or attempt to disrupt that characters actions (apply a -1 mod for each Hex moved by an Interrupting character if using that Optional Rule to see if they can get to the acting character in time).
The character who has "Taken the Initiative" may spend one of his +2 modifiers on his own Initiative in response to another character Interrupting, too keep the initiative and act first.
Aiding characters may in turn intercept an Interrupting Opponent if their Initiative Score is high enough, and may Move and Act without costing the current Character points of Initiative.

If not Interrupted, the character who has Taken the Initiative (and any Interrupting or Aiding characters) have now completed their turn and spent their Standard Action(s).

Each side will now put forward their highest remaining Init Score, deciding which character will act next.
Resolve the new 'current Character' and any Aiding or Interrupting character's Actions before moving to the next highest Initiative Scores remaining in the pools.
One the Pools are empty, proceed to the next round with a new Initiative Test between the sides to see which character Takes the Initiative.

NOTES

Some characters with Initiative boosting talents, like Tiger Spring, may trigger them in attempts to Interrupt or Aid (along with trying to Take the Initiative or during their normal turn).
These powers add their Rank (not Step) to the Initiative Score used from the Pool for the acting character (with Tiger Spring being the template for further powers) at normal Strain Cost, or added as normal when making the Initiative Test for their side.

Air Dance is now an exception, and requires some house-rules:
--If used for the Initiative Test, the Air Dance user must declare a target and their intention to melee, and then record Strain and roll as normal. The user must use this as their Initiative Score (it does not go back into the Pool if they loose the Initiative Test). After the Initiative Test, proceed as if the player triggered it on their turn.
--If used during the remainder of the Round, the user records Strain and adds the Air Dance Rank +modifiers (not Step) to the Initiative Score chosen out of the pool, much like Tiger Spring. The user must declare an Air Dance melee attack at an intended Target. The target must respond by selecting an Initiative Score from their own pool (modifying it with the their own Talents).
--If the Air Dancing character wasn't rolling for Initiative at the start of the turn, and still has a higher Initiative than his opponent, he makes an Air Dance check against the opponents current Initiative, otherwise compare the existing Score. If the Character has Taken the Initiative, he may spend one of his +2 modifiers on this Score.
--If the Air Dance Result is double the opponents Initiative Score, the Air Dancing character may take one action immediately following his opponents action (note, the opponent might lower their own Init Score to allow Allied Movement, etc).
--These Air Dance rule are the obvious point for changes based on playtesting.

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This sets up a cycle where we decide who goes first up front and quickly, and then play out a character's declared action + responses before moving to the next Initiative Score. Allied Movement allows characters to position allies to threaten areas or opponents, forcing them to move out of range, etc.

What do you think?