Create Thread Item

[Dougansf]

I've been reading the Enchanting section, trying to get a handle on how it's done in preparation for my Weaponsmith getting the Knack. I'm curious about a few different things.

First, what Thread Items can a Weaponsmith actually make (before they get Elementalism and count as a Magician)? Weapons and Armor make sense, what about Defensive, Mastery, and other Thread items?

Second, I believe I've worked out how long it takes to make a Thread Item from scratch. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Making a Thread Broadsword:
Gathering Materials - 12.5 silver in self-gathered materials. (The text says "for each ingredient," but the table suggests only one bonus can be gained. Which is the case?)
Craft Weapon - 8 days of work. TN 11 (This counts as the Artisan skill for Enchanting bonus later. Does it require a separate roll at TN 9? Let's assume a Good result.)
Forge Weapon - 3 uses, 3 days each = 9 days of work. TN 14,15,16
Imbue with Magical Power - Did Forge Weapon do this? How is this done without the ability to manipulate Spirits, True Elements, etc?
Symbolic Elements - I understand this part, let's say the GM approves it.
Create Thread Item - any additional money? 1 month of work. TN of 15.

Total time: 1 month, 17 days.

[galafrone]

[Dougansf]

Good catch. Fixed, thanks.

[arma]

What Weaponsmiths can make:
Weapons, Armor, Shields, associated items. It's more about what comes out of it than what enchantment type or base item it is. For example, take a sword that doesn't get the standard Damage Step increase, but a +1 to Attack per Rank, or some bonuses to Parry. This is technically a Mastery Item and follows that template, but the Weaponsmith can make it, because it's a weapon and it gets "weapon bonuses". If it were a quarterstaff that gave bonuses to Spellcasting and Willforce, while the base item would be a weapon, it's not a magical weapon intended to be used as a weapon. It would be something for a Spellcaster to enchant. Once the Weaponsmith gets Elementalism at 9th Circle, he becomes familar with these things, and could make the staff. Just the same, he could enchant a blanket to give some weapon bonuses to work like a net, or for parrying. It's a blanket, but it's intended to be used as a weapon.
So, if it's intended to hurt people or defend yourself from being hurt, in physical combat, the Weaponsmith should be able to make it. If it's supposed to have some exotic ability the Weaponsmith would not normally know about, he may have to involve someone else, or he may require special ingredients (that's where these come in).

Now, on to your item, I'll pick up the individual points:
(Note: "craft" = making the base weapon, "forge" = using Forge Weapon to make it +X)
Materials: It's not half the price for the broadsword, you can totally neglect this (I think the rules even suggest neglecting it). You need half the Enchantment Cost, which you'll find on the table on p. 275 PG. So, he needs 2,000 silvers worth of material. However: Enchanting assumes you _buy_ a forged weapon. But the Weaponsmith forges this himself in your example. Normally, an Enchanter would have to buy the forged +3 broadsword for 1,000 silver (per talent description: 250+250+500). This, you can subtract from the 2,000. So he needs a total of 1,000 silvers worth of _other_ materials, these are used to create the "permanent forging" effect. Maybe this is orichalcum, maybe some other stuff. He either buys this, or gathers it. If he gathers it, it's essentially all free.
(This is also why there's a difference between 1H and 2H weapons, and between light and heavy armor. The table on p. 275 already has the increasing cost for forging figured in. The actual non-forging enchantment for them is the same, though: it's the same for th Enchanting rules if it's a 1H or a 2H weapon, just the forging part differs.)
Gathering: He actually just needs the one material, orichalcum. He only gets the modifier for gathering himself for stuff he actually needs, so it's a maximum of -1. However, some items require several types of true elements, these would stack. Also, if you determine something special is required for special effects (say, the weapon is to have both ice and fire damage options, so you'd need two types of elements), then this also stacks. It must be required by either the item's rules or the GM, in any case.
Crafting base weapon: 8 days, TN is 10 (Damage Step of 5 + 5). This counts as crafting the base item (-2 enchantment modifier), but not as the artisan skill use--it's just a plain old sword. You'll have to make an additional test and add a bit of time to fancy it up, and make another test vs. 9 (and you need to count result levels, because it's -1 per Result Level...).
Forge Weapon: Yes.
Imbue: Partly. Forge Weapon gave you 1,000 worth of magical power. But that will fade in a year. You now need to imbue it with some more to make it a permanent thread effect.
Actual Enchantment: Yup, 1 month.

Now, you can't for certain determine the actual Enchanting DN, because the Artisan Test might modify it by 0 (failure) up to -4 (Excellent Result).
Time, you may or may not have to figure in time for gathering. If you're going to hunt for orichalcum, that may well a a couple of weeks or a month. If you by chance found some, it's none. Also, the artisan test does require time, and the fancier things are supposed to be, the longer this may take. It's on the low end, however, one to three days maybe.

So, weapons and armor are a bit more complicated if you can forge yourself.
However, just keep in mind: This is technically not one enchanting process, but two different processes.
One makes a forged +3 weapon. The other takes a forged +3 weapon and enchants it to be permanent, but threaded.

What a threaded broadsword actually costs can differ a lot based on what you bring to the table.
You can:
Buy the whole thing: 4,000.
Bring in a forged weapon and have it enchanted: 3,000 (4,000 - forging cost).
Enchant it yourself, but don't forge: 2,000 (1,000 for buying the forging, 1,000 for orichalcum)
Enchant and forge yourself: 1,000
Enchant and forge yourself, and gather the materials: 0
Or some variant, maybe you only got half the required orichalcum and need to buy some more. Or you can only forge up to +2 and have someone else finish it up to +3.

It's complicated

[Dougansf]

Thanks Arma. It's very complicated, and reading it is very circular. I'm working on making a spreadsheet to tally the numbers and results to work out the Enchanting TN automatically. I've already done it for Crafting and Forging.

So any Physical Defense, or physical attack/defense Talent is fair game. But Spell and Social(?) are not available at this time.

Interesting that a weapon can be a Mastery Item. I like the idea of an Accurate weapon (+Melee Weapons). Would that mean that the bonus damage from Forging would go away after turning into a Thread item?

Materials: While the rules for Enchanting tell you to ignore the base cost of the item, if I do the crafting over enough time, and adventure in-between Forging attempts and the Enchanting process, then I need the starting investment to make the weapon in the first place. I agree that once the Forging is maxed, then it's a 1000 silver component (not 1012.5). If I get enough down time to do all of this at once, then I'll ignore the original Crafting cost.

Speaking of the costs for 1H vs 2H weapons, how does that apply for Size 4 weapons like Troll Swords?

[b]Gathering:[b] Wait, Orichalcum is required? I thought it was just the most common, and for the most powerful items?
But a Weaponsmith can't Create or Purify Orichalcum or Gather True Elements until Elementalism. I suppose he could mine them, and then pay someone to refine it for the item (thus covering the remaining cost needed in the Imbue step).
There's the "Combining Magical Ingredients" section that implies that there are a variety of items that could be used (Wyvern skin, gems, etc). This seems to be in the reach of Weaponsmiths, but it's the least defined method.

[b]Crafting:[b] Yes TN 10. Apparently my eyes slipped and read the TN for Troll Sword. Could Craft Weapon be used as the second Artisan roll as well, or does it have to be a "real" Artisan skill?

[b]Imbue:[b] See comment in Gathering about paying the Elementalist to refine the materials into something I can use.

The Gathering time is too variable (at this time) to rely upon for these purposes.

Right, 2 processes. But I can do both of them now, so I'm looking at the streamlined method for best case scenario.

Being able to make a Thread Weapon at 1/4 cost is nothing to complain about.
Since the big Enchantment bonuses come from Crafting and Artistic, I may settle for buying 1000 silver of magical components and a little under 2 months of work.

[arma]

[Dougansf]

[Dougansf]

[arma]

[Dougansf]