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Re: Fourth Edition Player's Guide Errata and FAQ

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:47 pm
by Telarus_KSC
Panda is saying that the "see detail or glean information" part of the ritual is automatic. That's not what the Target Number represents, or what you are rolling to achieve, so the Archer ability is not applicable. Similarly, if you asked an archer to do a complex add, multiply, subtract math problem in their heads (a Perception roll), they shouldn't get to spend Karma when they "visualize" it.

I think of these kind of threadweaving rolls as navigating a mental maze in order to find the right portion of the pattern to tie your thread to. This "thread sight" doesn't let you look into Astral Space (as the Astral Sight talent does), it allows you to superimpose the image of the threads and pattern in your mind while you work with or look at the object.

Re: Fourth Edition Player's Guide Errata and FAQ

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:05 pm
by etherial
Telarus_KSC wrote:Panda is saying that the "see detail or glean information" part of the ritual is automatic. That's not what the Target Number represents, or what you are rolling to achieve, so the Archer ability is not applicable. Similarly, if you asked an archer to do a complex add, multiply, subtract math problem in their heads (a Perception roll), they shouldn't get to spend Karma when they "visualize" it.


Even if you asked them to do it on a sheet of paper, I wouldn't let them spend Karma on it.

Re: Fourth Edition Player's Guide Errata and FAQ

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:09 pm
by Baravakar
Telarus
Similarly, if you asked an archer to do a complex add, multiply, subtract math problem in their heads (a Perception roll), they shouldn't get to spend Karma when they "visualize" it.

This "thread sight" doesn't let you look into Astral Space (as the Astral Sight talent does), it allows you to superimpose the image of the threads and pattern in your mind while you work with or look at the object.

Doing math in your head is not sight based. Doing math on a piece of paper is not sight based either.

Pg 209: Astral Sensing:
    Astral sensing is usually performed with the Astral Sight talent. All adepts get access to Thread Sight, a limited form of astral sight granted by the Thread Weaving talent.

Please see this post on Karma:
http://www.fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1397

Can a windling archer spend karma on Astral Sight (a PER sight based ability) because of the first circle ability?
Can a wizard use karma for knowledge skills, since they rely on recalling information?
Mataxes: In both cases the answer is yes.


Astral Sight and Thread Sight are both form of astral sensing. They are both sight based.
An archer with Astral Sight and spend karma because of the first circle discipline ability.
Sight is sight, Archers can spend karma on sight tests.

Re: Fourth Edition Player's Guide Errata and FAQ

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:35 pm
by Telarus_KSC
You're a very literal person (no offense meant). :)

The whole "Thread Sight" concept was introduced in 1st Edition's 'Magic: A Manual of Mystic Secrets', and it was a Talent Knack that you had to learn separately. It was an alternative to forcing players to pick up Item History / Weapon History to learn Key Knowledges (something opened up in 4th edition to research and other methods), and should be read in the context that it is an astral sensing method (i.e. not directly perceiving astral space, which can be dangerous as you project an image of yourself into astral space when "fully" / directly perceiving astral space). Even the Astral Sigh talent gets around this, but allows you to "see" details & the surrounding environment as if you were projecting. The name Thread Sight is a metaphor, you only get the simple image of the object you are studying.

The current term even says it's a metal picture, "Thread Sight gives the user a mental picture of the pattern, but with less precision. ... It simply allows an adept to sense enough of the pattern to weave threads to it. ... Thread Sight cannot be used to sense the magical patterns of creatures, Namegivers, or other magical auras." Another key difference is that the Astral Sight talent allows follow-up rolls to get more detail or sense more of the environment/magical patterns around.

The examples give a pretty clear difference of the character "seeing" into astral space and picking out details like running waves around knots of birds, swirling boulders, and flaming sprites inside the item's pattern, but when viewed via Thread Sight it is not literally seen, but the image forms in his mind is much simpler, blue knotwork around colored orbs.

[Edit: I also think keeping everyone's Threadweaving Talent at similar power levels, now that everyone gets it at first Circle, to be a factor in making this ruling.]

Re: Fourth Edition Player's Guide Errata and FAQ

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:55 pm
by Mataxes
Thread Sight (and Astral sensing in general) does not involve actual sight. It is a translation of the magical impressions into a form the adept is able to understand and interpret. For most adepts, this information is conveyed with "visual" cues.

"Thread Sight" being part of Thread Weaving does not allow an Archer to spend a point of Karma from his Discipline ability on a Thread Weaving test. He may, of course, still spend Karma on the talent as normal.

Re: Fourth Edition Player's Guide Errata and FAQ

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:42 pm
by daedalron
Not sure if it's an error or not, but on page 107, the Swordmaster, at 8th circle, gets +2 to his Physical Defense. All the other disciplines get a +3 to a Defense instead. Should the bonus to Swordmaster be a +3 too ? Or is there a reason he only gets 2 ?

Re: Fourth Edition Player's Guide Errata and FAQ

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:04 pm
by Panda
This was covered here.

Re: Fourth Edition Player's Guide Errata and FAQ

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:26 am
by Baravakar
Awareness and Surprise:
    Can Awareness be used when determining whether a character is surprised?

The rules state:
    Pg 390, Surprised: From time to time, creatures appear in unexpected places... those caught off guard may be surprised. Surprised characters cannot take any actions during the combat round in which they are surprised. To determine whether a character is surprised, he makes a Perception test against a Difficulty Number based on the situation.

    Pg 129, Awareness - Action: Simple: The adept has trained to be more aware of his surroundings, noticing things that he might otherwise miss. When trying to spot someone or something—including hidden vaults, secret doors, or disguised or concealed characters—the adept makes an Awareness test instead of a Perception test.

    Pg 137, Danger Sense - Action: Free: This talent may be used when the adept might be Surprised, or when he is trying to avoid a trap or other danger.
Danger Sense specifically states it is used for Surprise ... Action Free.
Awareness states the character is trained to notice things.... when trying to spot something ... Action Simple.

Actions:

    Talents and skills do not require a Standard action to use; are often considered Simple Actions.

    Free actions are usually part of other actions a character takes, enhancing them. Most Free actions are enhancing the outcome of another action or they are a reaction to another character’s action.
Awareness is an enhancement to PER tests. Danger Sense is basically an enhancement to initiative to beat the surprise.

Personally, I would allow Awareness to be used for surprise checks and change the listed action to Free. This does not seem to be supported by the rules.

Re: Fourth Edition Player's Guide Errata and FAQ

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:58 pm
by Tattered Rags
The way Awareness is written implies to me it is for active searching. Its use is the difference between "I blindly rush down the hallway" and "I enter the hallway, looking for ambushes or traps". In the first instance only Danger Sense would work. In the second, the actively looking gets you a Perception test, or Awareness, and Danger Sense could still work if needed.

Re: Fourth Edition Player's Guide Errata and FAQ

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:06 pm
by Telarus_KSC
Yes, Awareness is for spotting threats before you have to roll Surprise or Trap Initiative. If you've spotted the threat, you may even do away with the Surprise roll entirely by warning everyone. Danger Sense is for those last minute *the jerk is 3 inches away with a knife*, *the rocks are already falling*, etc, type situations. It also allows you to roll Dex+Rank instead of Perception in Surprise situations.

Note that Awareness is a "Default Skill", but Danger Sense is not (the minor mechanical being people with Disarm Trap can roll raw Perception i.e. default Awareness to find them). This means that Danger Sense is a "2nd chance" reaction, that only a few have access to. Also, Awareness has a short/medium visibility range, while Danger Sense is rank x10 yards. (You should understand that Danger Sense used to be called "Trap Initiative", but was widened into more of a "Spidey Sense" magic to include ambushes.)