3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to see?

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Re: 3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to se

Postby Arhnayel » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:41 am

Concerning the use of a D10, it would be a big change in the game due to the differences between battlepowers of weapons. By example : a unit with spears has actually a power of 9 / 10 vs inf. / cav. which would be divided by 2 to end at 4.5 / 5 on a D10. As we can't score 4.5, will the powers become 4 / 5 (spears less powerfull) or 5 / 5 (spears more powerfull) ? Just take the Beastmen (2 handweapons) and the Armoured Beastmen (2-handed weapon) : they both would end with the same power ! And so on with skills, armors, spells etc. The D20 adds more versatility in units and armies.

Also, I don't understand how a D10 alone can change things. Can you please precise your idea ?
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Re: 3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to se

Postby WhiteLynx » Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:37 am

Yes, you are right to stress that the dice and the attack scores are a combined issue, that need to be thought together. Personnaly I would rather have a slightly more contrasted attack scores overall, but that is probably not a shared view by every body.

What I mean about the D10 is this:
One can say that that a +10 bonus and a D20 gives you the same chances than a +5 bonus and D10, with calculation such as:
- a standard attack with basic weapon (+8) on an enemy of size 2 with a little armor (-3) , you must roll 5 or less to hit, so 5/20 gives you a 25% chance to hit.

But when we calculate probabilities like this, we base our reasoning on maths that are only valid for (very) great numbers. As a matter of fact, theoretically speaking, it is only valid when the number of roll approach the infinite, but of course it is a good approximation for 1000 dice rolls, for instance. If you ever tried to make statistics with rolling dice over an over, you'll know exactly the problem I am speaking of!

Then, it means that in the middle of a DW battle when you've got 4-5 dice rolls that really matters strategically for who is going to win (typically you might make damage to that unit and make it rout, or even worse for deciding the effect of magic), it is much more common to have an exceptional roll (positive or negative) with a D20 than with a D10 (the standard deviation is twice greater, and on a few rolls it matters).

Anyway that's what I have understood of the reason why I've often got the feeling that the winner was decided on a few (un)successfull rolls in DW. But you're probably right to say that the dice is not the only aspect that matters for a more strategical and predictable game or a more random one. Magic is for instance definately increasing luck as a determining factor of success.

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Re: 3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to se

Postby Arhnayel » Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:44 am

I did some manipulations and calculations with excel this morning, considering series of 5 rolls. With the D20 I used a power of 8 (under 8 to hit) and a power of 4 with the D10 (under 4 to hit). I counted the number of succesfull hits for each series of 5 rolls (5 attacks). I was looking for an "in-game" approach when having 5 "important" rolls to be done at the same time. I did the experiments with 2 series of 5 rolls, 5 series of 5 rolls, 15 series of 5 rolls and 500 series of 5 rolls (this one wasn't necessary with the law of great numbers). I also made two graphics to observe the results and launch the experiments again and again to see what happen and compare the two dices.

With 2 series only, the dispersion seems to be a little greater in average for the D20. At 5 series, the dispersion was nearly the same for both dices. At 15 series (and 500), the dispersion was the same. the luck was nearly the same : I mean, with both dices, the number of times x succesfull hits were made was nearly the same.

I did the same experiments with different powers and even scores of 2 (D20) and 1 (D10) to count critical spells. Same observation.

Now, when taking in count that the player will roll the D20 more than 10 times (2 series of 5 rolls means 10 rolls) during the game, I assume the differences between the dices won't be really seen and 2 series are not enough for the tests. Luck will still appear in the middle of the game when having to succeed one or few rolls.

Having a D10 will not significantly reduce the luck in the game. I stick to my position : the main part of the game is the Movement Phase and we have to move our units / monsters / heroes well to avoid relaying on luck :-)
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Re: 3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to se

Postby DerGevater » Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:23 am

Some ideas from my side for the 3rd edition:
Special for Thain:
*there a missing some hero’s with bow or throwing weapons, for the eagle or lion clan. Also possible would be a weapon option for this clans.
*Why Thain cant heal? Nearly every side got a cheap heal spell, even goblin can with Orc shamans (and that’s ok so). Of course shaman should have the heal spell and CAN'T heal Dorgas (or there would be a big problem)
*Just an idea from my Side, an Dorga High priest, lvl 3 caster, lvl 2 commander. If you have him as leader, you don’t need any other leader, BUT you cant buy any shamans except Marven. Some nice skills, very expensive. Maybe you could call him “Der Gevatter” (that’s means something like “the death”). I got some ideas for his skills too.

*Ballista a really bad at this game. 1. you have to aim. 2. you have to hit. If just 1 dice is really bad you often cant make any damage. Cannon can still do damage, and big catapult got still collateral damage.
*Flying is to complicated. (I am happy that Thain don’t have many flyers)
*Maybe the points shouldn’t just be calculated. There should be some other aspects, like Thain don’t shoot normal => archer cost a bit more, and other things like that
*razghul did already mention it, "light" artillery is to weak, better make it a bit stronger and expensive but not so useless.
*I like my Hex-play
*I love my D20
*AND PLEASE don't change to much at the recruitment only because you fear elite army’s. Of course there could be Elite army, but at normals battle I never had one and my enemy also not. Its very cool that you can make so much or so less, so every time a complete different army.
Tournaments is something complete different and you shouldn’t make general rules just because you fear elite army’s at Tournaments.

Last but not least I am sorry for my bad English.

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Re: 3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to se

Postby WhiteLynx » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:34 pm

Great experiments Arhnayel !

After all it might be just a feeling, or the dice is not the real issue I'm troubled with in terms of luck. What I am really trying to say, is that I have had that general feeling that what makes one win or loose remains for a large part on luck in Demonworld. But I think now you're right that the dice is not really the issue: it might be a set of different things, like which units start which side (you rarely have time or movement ability to change your right wing for your left), a relatively weak contrast for the ratio of attack score / armor or even the fact that it is difficult to gain a strategic advantage such as attacking from the rear or unprepared units (in Movement or disordered). Is there anyone having that feeling or it is just my subjective opinion?

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Re: 3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to se

Postby Arhnayel » Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:17 am

At your service WhiteLynx :-)

I felt the same as you in my early games until I properly learned how to play the game but still, luck can and will change things. Usually, both players got the "same luck" and the game changes in one or more of the 4th, 5th, or 6th turns and the winner emerges. It is sometimes due to luck only, but more often due to a right combination of moves, spells, attacks, moral etc.

Here's a few advices some experienced players told me when I started the game. I hope it will help you :
- recruit a balanced army (not elite only - to be fair and keep the game interesting - but not too many hard-to-play units either ; not too many units or else the army is too hard to move / manoeuver ; 2-3 heroes / generals ; 1 or 2 sorcerers etc.) ;
- know the abilites of the army (advantages, disadvantages, spells, special abilites etc.) ;
- have a starting-tactic for the beginning of the game, based upon the armies ;
- choose well the terrain and place correctly the units (some forests to avoid shoots by example... but not too much for spell's line of sight and movement) ;
- take your time to move / manoeuver correctly the army and try to engage the enemy only when it's a good moment and / or with the good unit.

And now I realise we need a "Strategy and advices" section in those forums. :mrgreen:

Back to the main subject : here are some ideas a friend of mine wanted to say for the 3rd edition :
- more movement for Dwarves ;
- make Elementals move like normal characters (stuck in melee etc.) ;
- restricts summoning so a lvl 1 wizard cannot summon anything (save for Isthak Pain Demons) and other wizards can summon but need to perform a ritual (they stay "paralyzed" for 1 whole turn and then the summoning is complete).

(I personnaly disagree all those ideas.)
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Re: 3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to se

Postby Anunnaki » Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:03 pm


Arhnayel wrote:And now I realise we need a "Strategy and advices" section in those forums. :mrgreen:

That can be a topic opened up in the Rules section, which is for discussion of Rules (and strategy is a part of that).

Kind Regards, James

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Re: 3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to se

Postby popidus » Thu May 02, 2013 11:22 am

Woah !

I read all this topics and see that there's a lot ideas here !

So, I think that you have to organize all topics for clarity :

1- Create a dedicated Forum.
2- Create topics on each subject.

I'm french too and a great player of dwarf and less times Thain...

Here are some of my ideas...

Again : regards and Thanks for the rebirth of Demonworld

For example :


1- General Ideas

I think that the game have to be more Unit oriented, speedier and for that simplier.

Some flaws :
- Units blocked by a Hero or one Hex.
- Some units are too slow against a shooitng army.
- Invocations too powerful (and free !).
- Level 3 wizards useless.
- Fumbles too important for Level 2 and especially Level 3 Wizards.
- Wall of fire too powerful and slow too much games.


2- Topic and Dice : D20 are else ?
My opinion :
- stay simple...
- D20 is ok but the calculation can be again simplified, notably when you take a new magic weapon...


3- Terrains - Maps : hexes are not hexes ? Materials ?
- Hexes are OK, to have more beautiful map : put marks like a X for the intersections not a complete hex.
- I like the principle of maps without anything and modulars Forests/Mountains etc to put on.
- Rigid map board : ok especially with maps with nothing on it but beware of the cost...


4-1- General, Heroes
- A simple rule to have more units and to have an action/unit oriented game : the Heroes or Units with (or reduced to) only 1 or 2 hexes don't block a unit in combat.
- Invocation : same rules as a Hero but necessity of a control (cf. Magic - Invocations).
- 1 Unit = 1 General or 1 Wizard/priest


4-2- Units
- Bases weapons too weak : everyone tends to take Elite units because they know that Basic units are not good enough.
- Units with 10/8/3 movments are too slow... Make it 12/10/6


4-3- Artillery
Empire : the cannon is ok.
Mortars :
The big guns as a dwarf are not playable as there are too costly for the effects on 1200/1500 games...
=> a cheaper price will be right.
The little guns are not sufficient to play a big role.
=> Perhaps, a battery of 2 to 3 mortars ?


5-1- Wizard/Priests
- Create 3 kind of level, notably to have a good reason to play 3rd level wizards.
- Level 1 : no invocation except eventually the little Ishtak's demons : cf. Invocation topic.
- Level 2 : fumble on 1 only. For every armies : possibility to cast invocations/to have elementals (only Ice for Ishtak, Wood for Elves...).
- Level 3 : fumble on 1 but limited conséquences : no death, no possibility of loosing all power permanently.


5-2- Magic - Invocations
I think that these are too powerful as a free unit.
Some new rules :
- Invocations : as said earlier : same rules as a Hero but necessity of a control.
- Invocations : only for wizards level 2+ except eventually for the little Ishtak's demons.
- Invocations : a new way to make them.
* Round 1 : the wizard can't move as he trace the pentacle.
* Round 2 : invocation, if the wizard make a fumble : the invocation has free itself and want to attack the wizard on the 1st round (Round 2). Afterwards, the invocation is out of control.
- Little trees for the Elves : make it a unit with a price not an invocation.


5-3- Magic - Wall of fire
This spell can spoil a game (and I say it as a Dwarf player...).
The last time a Orc player was unable to play and was bored to the point to quit the games...
- Only 5 hexes not 6 : no heroes blocked, less units blocked.
- 4 Spell points instead of 2.
- 2 Rounds instead of3.


8- Jump
For Thain's Lions and the Spiders.
Don't allow them to engage a troop that is not already engaged.
One jump for all the game.


One for each armies :

7- Armies - Dwarves
They need to have more movements, especially against shooters army... and I don't speak about invocations, Wall of fire etc...
- Blunderbers : Shooter skill at 1 instead of 2.
- Movments : free in the Hills and Mountains for Dwarves and Little Hill Giants.
- Movments for infantry with no armour (Armour 0, Shield only) : 18/12/8
- Movments for light infantry (armour 1) : 16/12/8
- Movments for heavy infantry (Gate keepers, Armoured vétérans...) : 12/10/8
- Rock Giant : in melee can attack with the rock in his rigght end Strenght 3 + Zize +...

7- Armies - Empire
- A simplification/reorganization of the Recruitment.
- Peasants & Bull head : basic troop (Idea : An army of Peasants and Buls...).
+ Troops that are not nobles including Lancers and Empire Chariot :
=> 30% minimum, no maximum.
- Nobles, Orders : 0-40%
- Other régions : 0-40%
- Empire chariot : cheaper : more difficult to move, Horses does'nt attack.
- Dragon, Druids, Wizards : 0-40%

8- Ishtak
4 Kinds of armies, coose one :
Option 1 :
Beastman 30% minimum no maximum
Elite : Ice trolls, Bersekers, Brotherhood, Bear riders : 40% maximum
General : 1 minimum
Heroes : for each unit.
Option 2 : Ice Witch 30% minimum no maximum
Option 3 : Undeads Skeletons or Zombies : 30% minimum no maximum
Option 4 : Demons : 30% minimum no maximum + Necromancers

Allies from the armies :
First : 40% maximum
Second : 20% maximum

- Battle Sled drawn by Polar Bears : possibility to use them without Ice terrains (simply rule that they are magic) : it's a shame to not use a beautiful mini like this...

7- Armies - Orcs
- Trolls : regeneration is too powerful :
* Only one regeneration for each figure.
* Simplier : 10 Trolls= a pool of 10 régénérations.

To be continued...

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Re: 3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to se

Postby Arhnayel » Fri May 03, 2013 5:50 am

@ Popidus :

Reorganizing the topics is a very brilliant idea !

Here are some comments :
* Wall of Fire lasts too long, that's for sure. 1 turn would be enough (with no other changes), 2 turns for 4 SP.

* Heroes and Invocations are made to block units / behemoths. If they aren't allowed to do it, they have no more purpose in the game (save for Heroes who can still join a unit to give orders and bonuses to Moral). Don't forget they are alone against a whole unit and they will be surrounded if not followed by an allied unit... So, I think restricting the "blocking-ability" is a bad idea.

* Basic units are numberous... even if not really powerful, they are good for number and canon fodder. And don't forget they can support attacks ! Specially useful when surrounding someone (like a lone Hero or Invocation). Also, they are cheaper than elite units.

* Alow me to recall that lvl 3 Wizards already can't lose all magic abilities when a spell goes wrong.

* Invocations / Summoning : I know they are quite annoying, but think about the spells the concerned Wizards can cast. Save the summonings, what do they have ? If we restrain that kind of spells, what will they do (specially Warlocks (Isthak) or Shamans (Thaïns)) ?

* Jump : I don't see the point in chaning the fact that a jumping element can engage an ennemy. It's the same as standard reoganisation moves at the end of the Melee Phase. Don't make a rule based on the last game between Igor and I (my unit was destroyed even if it prevented his General to engage another one of my units).

* Dwarves : their movement is fine (after all, they have a huge armour and their Size of 1 don't give any bonus to the shooters). Just use mortars, Elixir of Speed, spells (Animate Earth by example) and "quick" units like Poney Riders and Hills Giants or place forests and hills on the battlefield (after all, with their 3 maneuvers, they are as quickly as they would be in normal fields). It's the same trouble with Thaïn against shooters : the player has to use Gar'worgars (I personnaly use 2 when fighting Elvs). Anyway, you're right concerning the Blunderers' shooting skill.

* Empire : The recruitement you propose will really make the Empire weaker. I know it can be hard to fight it when the player recruits massively Noble Archers, Pikemen and Knights of the Orders (same problem when a Dark Elf player recruits only Dar Kalons, Golems etc.). We should think about it again.

* Isthak : please, forget about those quotas. An army full of Demons ? Invicible army ! Even an army full of Ice Witches will be one of the most fiersome in the game. Trust me. And the Battle Sleds are playable on non-icy fields (just use the little spell...).

* Trolls : their only advantage is that regeneration. They are slow, not really powerfull, with no armour, with a bad Initiative... making their regeneration works one time per game will make them too weak in their tanking role.
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Re: 3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to se

Postby DerGevater » Sun May 26, 2013 7:45 pm

Reorganizing the topic is really a good idead!

Recently i did play 2 games with Thain, we played with the normal 2nd Edition rules with just a few "house rules".

Because of that some concrete suggestions:
* Thain really have big problems against shootings army, especially against big artillery. Even with eagle clan, because you are not a match against the other shooters. I dont want a shooting Thain army anyway, but its really hard to fight against them.
* The 1 dealing damage spells is a horror for me, it easyle kills your stongest heroes, even with the best armour, kills your giant or weaken your strongest units.... and if you try to avoid it with the blue amulet you have max 1 for to many points and even cant spell your own unit...
* to bann magic is also a sad think to me, because of the aspects you have to chose the cheap one, becasue the expensive one easyle can be dispelled for 2 mana!?! why not at least for the same mana?
or give Thain a spell that protect your units from enemys spells (would also solve the 1 damage dealing problem)
* the differnece betwen unofficially 2nd edtion and "fancorrectet" 2nd edition is really crazy (in my opinion)! Of course there was correctet many litlle mistakes like the attack value of the Gar'arryd, or to make the eagle ballista a bit cheaper, because its most of the time useless.
But also there was many correction that did happen because of tournament thinking, like the ghost bear skills dont need a round to activate, but 20 point more cost, or to make throwing weapons nearly useless for the lion clan. I dont want to completle discuss here whats a good change and what not, maybe after reorganization this big thread, but there shouldt be to many change just because of tournament thinking...

Again sorry for my bad english

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