3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to see?

Discussion on the Demonworld game line, errata, and feedback not related to playing or miniatures.
Swordpriest
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Re: 3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to se

Postby Swordpriest » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:37 am

What I'd like to see:

1. Please, please, please keep the d20.

2. More varied rules for different races would be nice.

3. Choice between hex or non-hex play. Please don't eliminate hexes totally.

4. Some rules for integrating other miniatures into the game would be great, too. But not absolutely necessary.

poulpox
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Re: 3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to se

Postby poulpox » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:04 am

These posts really make me wonder why the third ed. is needed interestingly. People seem to really enjoy the rules as they are with only very minor tweaks (non-hex option and recruitment so far?).

The question is then: what would allow DM to be more successful and appeal to a bigger audience?
I think there are 2 elements which could be considered apart from the rules:

. Art: the covers of the army books are too old, and just don't feel professional at all for today's gamers (just like the 80s art of GW). I think the artwork really needs a face-lift to suit modern players. Could the rulebook art cover change too? Although it is now quite emblematic for the game, tweaking it might mean a fresh start for the game

. Minis: well minis are based on a concept art, and I think unfortunately although there are some lovely models in the range, quite a few of the designs have aged too much, just like the general art in DM. I think this is critical for a table-top miniature game, as many players are attracted first by models, then by rules (ie I choose my armies by how they look, not how they play. Then the game rules need to be fun to keep me playing). If you want collectors to invest in minis, those have to be good. I'm thinking for instance of the goofiness of Trolls and Ogres, these models are just off-putting (I know some players do like them, but I don't think this is a general consensus).
This is why I think FASA would benefit from re-launching DM through a Kickstarter because this would allow to use the ££ generated to freshen up the artwork, and create new minis/molds (which is expensive, hence the importance of having financial certainty via a kickstarter).

I would like to use Dropzone Commander from Hawk Wargames as an example: the brand new game managed to keep its rules secret until the actual launch of the game last year, with only pictures of its models as a teaser; only based on those pictures they have managed to sell extremely well through pre-orders and they had to expend very quickly to cater for the demand. They have chosen a very realistic design for their range, as well as pro pictures to present the product. The response was just awesome, considering it was based on no shared rules or play test.
Kickstarters' success with regards to games which offer great minis is also another example: if it has good minis, the kickstarters sell (Zombicide, Kingdom Death, Deep Wars, Sedition Wars, Judge Dredd, Rivet Wars plus all mini only kickstarters such as Dwarven Adventurers Boxset, Chibi Dungeon Adventurers, Red Box Games...).
DM has the chance to also have great rules, so the work is half way done!

T.

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Arhnayel
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Re: 3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to se

Postby Arhnayel » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:33 pm

As written on that thread http://www.fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=944&p=6844#p6844 I think some new map sets, particulary customizable ones would be nice, and a rule to compose the field should be in the 3rd edition (based upon the number of * the highest general has and the scouting force or something). That way, players could have their own battlefields without having to spend too much time building it (and too much money as the 3D terrains may be quite expensive). This would also give the game many more possibilities.

I also would like to see a new rule for flanking the enney. The actual rule isn't really interesting : the units should arrive with the order we want and with a choice of formation. But, the scouting force should only consider light cavalry and light infantry (Masters of the Order scouting ?! Yeah right !). I have a homemade rule, if you want it.
The Blessing of Stars' eternal
Although the Knight remains mortal.

Wendigo
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Re: 3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to se

Postby Wendigo » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:32 am

I enjoy the rules as they are a lot. I would also like to keep the Hex-based play and the order system. Those are basically the things that made demonworld appeal to me in he first place, and especially the order system was way ahead of it's time imho.

What I would like to see is a little tweaking in army selecion, to get more "realistic" armies, as was already mentioned. Also I would like Isthak to have the option to use "pure" armies. I.e.: A Human only army, a BBeastman only army, etc. As it stands, you have to take Icewitches, Beastmen and Humans, no matter what. This is fine for big battles, but hardly accurate for small raids.

Actually I would be mor then happy if only the artwork got an update and the rules kept as they are. I think it is far more important to widen the available armies and the background then to change the rules.

CSANecromancer
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Re: 3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to se

Postby CSANecromancer » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:49 am

As a player of the Empire I'd like to see the imperial spell "dimensional portal" of the 1st edition brought back into the game. As it is now, there is absolutely no need or real use for a level 3 wizard. All of the wizard's guild's spells of the 2nd edition can be cast by a level 1 or level 2 wizard. The only wizard's spell which needed some real magic power was the dimensional portal. The priests have their exorcisms which can burn up mana real fast and the magicians of the order have their fireballs. So at these professions a level 3 priest/magician has quite some work at hands. But not so the wizard's.

I'd really appreciate to buy Sarador for 400 points and to put him to real use - but not with spells which cost only 2 or 3 MP. :)

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Arhnayel
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Re: 3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to se

Postby Arhnayel » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:24 pm

The Dimensional Portal uses 1 mp per 2 elements and 2 hexes of displacement for units, and 1 mp per hex for a hero. So it costs 5 mp to cast this spell on a full unit and have it moved by 2 hexes, 10 mp for 4 hexes etc. This is a spell made for lvl 2+ sorcerers as lvl1 won't be able to use it with their 10 mp capacity and the other spells they have to cast (e.g. Magic Shield...). Lvl2+ can cast some buffs, then cast the Portal (maybe with some rest if the teleportation distance is long). Lvl3 will be better than lvl2 because of the mp pool - they don't need to rest and they can cast this spell on full unit and teleport them over a good range. For me, this spell is perfect that way.

I think lvl3 sorcerers are mainly to be used for the "no resting" capacity and not only for the huge spells (same for lvl3 clerics or firemages, and for all the wizards in the game). Also, lvl3 sorcerers are a really good choice of recruitement when playing with more than 1500 points. Under 1500, it's best to use lvl2. and I think this is good for background too : a master mage won't go on a battlefield if the battle isn't important enough.

If there's something to be done on spells, I would prefer some changes in the elvish's list (I still don't know how to play the Superior Magic spell from the Dyrea - totally useless spell actually ; maybe a little change in the Sleep spell also like adding some sort of a range so that the Dyrea can block more elements but still being engaged) and the orcish's list (I still don't understand why they can cast the Flesh of Stone which give +2 to both armors... I think a spell giving +1 on both would be enough and would made the other spells more played - same for the spells from the Thaïn's and Dark Elves' lists).
The Blessing of Stars' eternal
Although the Knight remains mortal.

CSANecromancer
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Re: 3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to se

Postby CSANecromancer » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:42 pm

@Arhnayel: Thanks for the information about the dimensional portal, but from where do you have them?

Regarding the "no resting" issue - I think that's something each player handles differently. I cannot recount even one instant from the battles I have played, where a spell caster had been able to throw magic for 10 consecutive rounds. Either he oblitered himself with a spell failure or he was pressed to move to unfavorable positions to avoid melee. But that's just what I have seen so far. As it is now I never would pay 400 points for a level 3 wizard. In battles above 1500 points I'd rather use a level 1 AND a level 2 wizard. Their costs are about 400 points also, but during the early stages of the battle they can pump out the double amount of magic shield and magic parade than a single lvl 3 wizard, which I think more important. :mrgreen:

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Arhnayel
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Re: 3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to se

Postby Arhnayel » Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:55 am

The Dimensional Portal spell has been modified shortly after the 2nd edition of the Imperial armybook. The errata .pdf files was downloadable on the website dw4all.de (which sadly doesn't exist anymore) and every changes were in German, made by the German players but approved by Hobby Products. When we translated the game in French, we included the errata .pdf files so we have all the rules :-) There are some changes in general rules (mostly flying rules) and Dwarves, Orcs, Elves, Empire and Isthak (spells and units costs mostly).

I still have the errata .pdf files on my computer - I will translate it in English when I have time and send it to FASAGames / Ral Partha as Omasu asks it on the forum here. If someone from the German community goes first for it, I will be happy because my german is rusted...

You have a point concerning the use of 2 sorcerers lvl1-2 instead of only 1 lvl3. In fact, my old "tournament" Isthak army uses 3 lvl1 for 1500 pts :-) (only 2 for 1200) Yeah for mass spells ! Yeah for mass criticals ! :mrgreen: Yeah for mass rests ?...

No resting is for games when you cast cheap or not-too-expensive spells (like 2-4 mp) each turn to buff or unbuff units and for some other situations (it depends of the armies and the battlefield, as always). This is very true for the Orcs when they use the lvl2-3 Shamans (just consider the number of units to buff or unbuff) or Clanngett's brothers. As those characters are heroes and sorcerers, having to rest in a crucial moment can ruin the strategy. You can recruit 2 lvl1 and boost 2 units per turn but the cost is higher than a lvl2. and a lvl2 can chain spells (e.g. Blizzard + Lightning from Isthak : you need 8 mp to cast both the spells without resting as you need the Blizzard to be casted the magic phase before the Lightning... 2 lvl1 can alternate the spells but cost higher than a lvl2 who can do the job very well and with a great flexibility - please don't mention the Cristals I'm not considering them for this exemple).

Sometimes, when you know what army you will face (e.g you play Empire and you know you're fighting Isthak), it may be more usefull to get the lvl3 for a special strategy (e.g. mass exorcisms !). So, recruiting a lvl3 is a very special way of playing sorcerers and need to be think differently. The lvl3 will be the main piece of the army and not a reinforcement like lvl1-2 and the army has to be recruited that way. And don't forget it may cost expensive, but if you play him well, your opponent will never get its points - so it's also 400 pts saved.

Don't forget also that when a spell ends in a critical, only the lvl3 sorcerers will never lose all their mp (without regen) as you can add / substract 2 to the D20. I won't say more about it.

The game allows everyone to play differently the sorcerers and everything is good. That's a huge advantage in the rules.

I will conclude with this concerning the sorcerers :
- lvl1 reinforce the army in any case and are easy to play but are very weak to criticals and very easily killed by the ennemy ;
- having 2 lvl1 is a very good option for who wants to use magic alot but this is more expensive than having just a lvl2 (beware the criticals !) ;
- lvl2 have more flexibility / adaptability than lvl1, they can do more things during the game, they are harder to kill than lvl1 and they won't die when a critical spell occurs ;
- having 1 lvl2 is a better way to reinforce the army than having 1 lvl1 but it's more expensive ;
- having 1 lvl1 and 1 lvl2 is a very good option for who wants to use magic alot but this is more expensive than having just a lvl3 (or 2 lvl1) (beware the criticals !) ;
- lvl3 are really powerfull but must come with a special strategy and so are hard to play ;
- the cost and strategies of lvl3 makes them usuable only in battles with more than 1500 pts ;
- lvl3 will never be killed by the ennemy and won't suffer too much the criticals.

And now I realize I just wrote a huge post... and I may went a little far off the subject. Sorry !
Last edited by Arhnayel on Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Blessing of Stars' eternal
Although the Knight remains mortal.

CSANecromancer
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Re: 3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to se

Postby CSANecromancer » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:03 am

@Arhnayel: Woohaa, thanks for all the information.

But...

I never doubted the general usefulness of a level 3 magic caster. It is especially and only the level 3 guild wizards of the empire, which I don't see any use in them without the dimensional portal. To use a name: I never bought Sarador the Black, because I already had difficulties using up all MPs (Hello to the critical failures... :thumbdown: ) of a level 2 guild wizard like Sandor.

WhiteLynx
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Re: 3rd edition DW, which modifications would you like to se

Postby WhiteLynx » Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:55 pm

Hi

I also would much prefer a D10 to the D20, leaving so much to luck that for most of my battles I had the feeling to win for having the good throw at the right time.. quite frustrating.

Another thing I'd like to see change in DW 3rd edition is the system of manoeuvering: I don't know how you handle it, but personnaly I find it tidious as possible, with long hesitation and lots of particular rules to what is allowed or not.

Nevertheless I love DW and above all the miniatures!


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